I want to learn how to implant a nucleus in a clam

[Valeria101]

Can anyone give an unbiased diagnostic of happiness?

I can understand a human feeling happiness or sadness, or both listening to a blanket of oysters clamping their hinges to lock tide water in. It an eerie, alien sound. Add the sea smell and it feels like hearing mist grinding its teeth - my hair is rising just thinking of it! You'd have to be dead to feel nothing.

What does that have to do with anything

 

[Slraep]

Can anyone give an unbiased diagnostic of happiness?

I think you just did!

Can anything match the magic and beauty of nature? Nature, healthy and thriving? I got goose bumps just reading your description!

Slraep

 

[Slraep]

Has anyone ever wondered how parrots are able to distinguish gender between themselves when we humans have to have parrots sexed by a lab? Some males and females of certain species look EXACTLY alike. If we compare their "primitive"(four cone) eye sight against a human's highly evolved colour eyesight, what do you think we will find? If we don't compare their eyesight to a human's, then what do we think we will find? Just recently scientists have discovered that birds can see UV light as distinct colours. That's why a female parrot can spot a male parrot from a distance. She sees his colours---ones that we cannot.

Maybe we arrogantly see our human form and function as the ultimate thing to be measured against. Mother Nature tells us otherwise. Are we blind?

"Beyond Human Perception our experiments provided evidence that birds use all four cones in their color vision. But it is difficult—impossible, in fact—for humans to know what their perception of colors is actually like. They not only see in the near ultraviolet, but they also can see colors that we cannot even envision."

"We humans customarily assume that our visual system sits atop a pinnacle of evolutionary success. It enables us to appreciate space in three dimensions, to detect objects from a distance and to move about safely. We are exquisitely able to recognize other individuals and to read their emotions from mere glimpses of their faces. In fact, we are such visual animals that we have difficulty imagining the sensory worlds of creatures whose capacities extend to other realms..."

"We are so locked into the world of our own senses that, although we readily understand and fear a loss of vision, we cannot conjure a picture of a visual world beyond our own. It is humbling to realize that evolutionary perfection is a will-o’-the-wisp and that the world is not quite what we imagine it to be when we measure it through a lens of human self-importance."


http://www.csulb.edu/web/labs/bcl/elab/avian vision_intro.pdf


Slraep

 

[kb2rocket]

well because I have somewhat of a brain I processed everything you all have said then I did a internet search to get the rest of the worlds opinion and here is how I now feel .. . that may be partialy mis quoted and stolen

if you are concerned with inflicting pain on animals based on your human perception of pain
then you should be kind to all mamals avoid hooking fish and dont worry about clams
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even if a clam does feel pain it does not wish it to stop a clams responses to tissue damage is painful mentaly to us because we have a brain that can compare it to our own experences
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I also read somewhere that a clam does have a very very primative brain that organizes activitys like spawning digging feeding ect.

 

[Raisondetre]

Is this merely an academic discussion of whether molluscs feel pain? By scientific definition they do not. It does not mean that any given stimulus is pleasant by our interpretation - it can cause tissue damage and give rise to the same cascade of inflammatory responses that lead to eventual tissue repair, death, or both. The more appropriate term is nociception. Pregnant women who have high spinal cord injuries do not feel the pain of say a C-section by virtue of damage to the connecting neuronal pathways - however, any noxious stimuli (well, even an ingrown toenail in someone with a SCI, not necessarily a huge cut like a C-section) can still give rise to a chemical cascade that can cause extreme high blood pressure, sweating, tachycardia etc, something we term autonomic dysreflexia. They do not feel pain because they are unable to. But these women still get anesthetics for C-sections because the tissue response is still there, and it can lead to death.

Nociceptive pain is a subtype of pain and should not be confused with nociception. Then there is neuropathic pain, which occurs in the absence of physically noxious stimuli due to presumed neuronal damage, but people still feel it and it needs to be treated too.

I believe that even bacteria have nociception - any activation of a chemical pathway to a noxious stimuli is nociception. But do they feel pain? No.

I know very well the molluscs do not find it "comfortable" to be nucleated - even if it's just mantle tissue that is inserted, there still has to be an incision made. I cannot imagine someone cutting me and stuffing something into my gonads. That is tissue damage. And the prerogative of even the most primitive and non-sentient species would be to survive and propagate, which requires the genetic traits to enable it to regenerate despite moderate tissue damage. But pain in the absence of complicated neuronal pathways, I do not believe so. If this goes on any further it will probably turn into something along the lines of just because you can't prove it doesn't mean the God/devil doesn't exist. So I will not comment any further.

 

[Slraep]

If this goes on any further it will probably turn into something along the lines of just because you can't prove it doesn't mean the God/devil doesn't exist. So I will not comment any further.

I think it is more putting out what has been scientifically detected and commenting on how much is still hidden in terms of pain/discomfort perception in other species besides ourselves, so that readers can extrapolate from it their own conclusions, or ongoing conclusions. Certainly it wouldn't do any good should this discussion turn into a merry-go-round of silliness. I enjoyed your post very much. Some interesting things to ponder in it.

Every year, the most fascinating new stuff about different living creatures(the ones left) is discovered. Still, even with these discoveries, we have to admit that we know precious little about nature and its mysterious beauty(order). And what precious little we do know about nature, unfortunately does not inspire us to cherish it.

When we are "stressed" we can feel different types of pain---mental, physical---relative and unique to our sophisticated(or so we think)nervous system. But maybe "stressed" molluscs experience something relative and unique to their primitive(or so we think)system. Something we cannot possibly relate to(like birds seeing UV colours). But they can. And if only "they" can relate to it, should we negate it because we cannot relate to it? Sweep it under the rug? Maybe that is why our environment is crumbling all around us. Because we resist the thought that creatures unlike ourselves may have a parallel existence to ours only on their own scale. And we've convinced ourselves that only the human "pain" experience matters.

Slraep

 

[Slraep]

well because I have somewhat of a brain I processed everything you all have said

Well that is nice to hear(the part where you are processing everything all of us have said, I mean).

Slraep

 

[Valeria101]

Every year, the most fascinating new stuff about different living creatures [...] And what precious little we do know about nature, unfortunately does not inspire us to cherish it.

And we've convinced ourselves that only the human "pain" experience matters.

Wearing pearls looks like a rather convincing appreciation of nature - those little natural wonders are practically worshipped!

Who is 'Nature' as an entity? From my perch, the unknown ranges from scary to neutral. The natural unknown seems to have only recently become benign and that only for some human population that got far enough from the frontline of 'nature' and can forget the threat of the unknown. No wonder attitudes are changing... some see it like you, some...

Human pain... Well, I cannot empathize with a mollusk without personifying it - as it was done up this thread.

Now... if just a hint of that started this thread, perhaps someone should start a charity protesting against the mistreatment of bivalves for useless luxury, boycott those pesky Chinese imports and burn pearls. it's been done successfully with their natural luxuries. ACTION NOW!

Gimme a break ...

 

[Slraep]

....it's been done successfully with their natural luxuries. ACTION NOW!

Gimme a break ...

Then, yes, let's bring back tortoise shell accessories, they were grand! How about trinkets of elephant ivory? Now why should I be stopped from buying that amazingly beautiful carved bangle(or two)? What about exotic bird's feathers? High society had women wearing those for parties as headresses! I've always wanted some but they have now unfortunately disappeared from the market. Damn those ACTION NOW people! And do these luxuries extend to home decor? Because I've also always wanted one of those "rhino leg" tables. They are such a conversation piece! Oh, forgot my most coveted luxury item---tiger skin. How magnificent! Nothing can compare. Well maybe a whole polar bear skin.....

I don't have any ultimate control over what people buy or think. Various posters to this forum have opened my eyes on a lot of subjects. And I am greatful to them for making me think a little more deeply about pearls and other things. What's wrong with that?

We were putting out some different spins on pain perception, NOT starting a Slraep wants to ban luxuries thread.

Slraep

 

[Caitlin]

I never cease to marvel at the places pearls take one. In this case, it is past the sciences, deeply into philosophies of life...and questions such as, "Are mollusks stoic"? For it is not whether they feel stress/pain, it is, "What stimuli can they tolerate and still come back with a pearl". (joke....joke)

 

[salem]

I just can't resist anymore. Please read only with a sense of humor. If you can't take a joke, just skip the link. I thought it was hysterical. Good for Harry Potter fans too.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/878513/1/

 

[Raisondetre]

That is the funniest thing I've heard all day!

 

[knotty panda]

their are secrets about what I am trying to do like what mollusk am I attempting to use and what very different method am I trying
.
both of these secrets would not be cost effective for a normal farm and would put them out of business but in my case the goal is to continue until I produce 22 of these special pearls and then stop! never to produce anymore these one of a kind pearls will be put into some type of jewelery and kept in my family

You realize, of course, the pearl your friend found is natural, not cultured. It remains to be seen what value, if any, the pearl brings. Additionally, your pearls will be cultured, not even pearl-plated beads as there is no nacre involved. I hardly think it's possible to put together a brand new culturing game plan in a week's time. Please think this through carefully.

 

[kb2rocket]

its hard to keep a secret with the invention of the internet (thanks Al Gore) on the subject of nucleus implants little bits of info. are all over the net. and everyone leaves out some info. Lucky for me the info is overlapping and I now have enough info about the operation attempt it once I get all the needed tools
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the original post in this thread was asking for help on finding info on nucleus implantation some of the posts turned out to be very useful pearls of knowlage thank you all
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then I asked if anything is done about the pain involved in this operation and the topic was slightly derailed (my fault) but I have learned that a clam can be prepped so it feels nothing during the operation. the debate about what if anything a mollusk feels may never be proven but I will be prepping my clams for the operation even if it is just to make Me feel better
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P.S. I havent discovered a reason not to try this yet
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I hate to ask about values but what do you figure a round purple cultured quahog pearl is worth ( you give the specs. and value ) this is just an opinion thing dont take it to serious

 

[knotty panda]

So much for the altruistic "kept in my family" "never to be produced again" "22 only" pearls. If you've read the quahog threads, you know what a natural is worth. A cultured is going to be worth much less.

 

[kb2rocket]

You realize, of course, the pearl your friend found is natural, not cultured. It remains to be seen what value, if any, the pearl brings. Additionally, your pearls will be cultured, not even pearl-plated beads as there is no nacre involved. I hardly think it's possible to put together a brand new culturing game plan in a week's time. Please think this through carefully.

.
OK I will
if I try and fail at the very least I get an education that I will share with the community
.
this isnt so much about the worth but if their is a market that would be a plus
.
lets see a show of hands from all the people that never wasted any money or time
.
if you dont try you wont know

 

[kb2rocket]

So much for the altruistic "kept in my family" "never to be produced again" "22 only" pearls. If you've read the quahog threads, you know what a natural is worth. A cultured is going to be worth much less.

logic and art dont always walk together
simular to love and reason

 

[Caitlin]

both of these secrets would not be cost effective for a normal farm and would put them out of business but in my case the goal is to continue until I produce 22 of these special pearls and then stop! never to produce anymore these one of a kind pearls will be put into some type of jewelery and kept in my family

It is not until post 22 that rocket revealed he isn't even talking about pearl oysters, but about clams!

I may as well tell you what mollusk I plan on using but I fear your responces be kind
.
its the quahog clam
I work with the man that found a purple pearl in his steamed clams that made national news

ok blast away I can take it

You will outshine all others who developed cultured pearls in Pinctadas! You will be the genius who actually cultured clam pearls! You will be famous! You will be the amateur that showed up all the experts.

In spite the Pearl of Allah's supporters' claims, no one has ever cultured in any kind of clam from little necks to the gigas. People who find them tend to over-value the pearls from clams, but they will never be as desirable as any kind "oyster" pearls. Quahog pearls do not make good jewelry, they are too fragile; they are like eggs a thin shell and gooey stuff inside. I read that when I was researching quahogs way back when. an't remember where though.

Then you breeze in and claim to have found the necessary information all over the internet to culture quahog pearls. What makes you think culturing a clam would be the same as culturing a nacreous pearl?

I am wondering if it is innocence or arrogance that leads to to pursue this? "Fools rush in"..........kind of thing. I am not trying to be mean, but to place your ideas in some kind of reality. I really think you lack respect for the people on whose shoulders you will be climbing to make your fantasy come true.

Have you even read C Denis George's investigative piece on the true history of pearl culturing?

 

[kb2rocket]

I sure do not want to upset anyone so I will stop posting

 

[Caitlin]

Hi rocket guy
Do not think you have upset any of us. In fact you told us to blast away.

This has been a provocative thread in the truest sense of the word. If you had revealed you wanted to know about clams from the first, you would have gotten very different answers

This is the real meaning of the word "forum".

I do not know if biologists specializing in bivalves know why a clam can form a pearl or whether it is a different process than in pearl oysters. The grain of sand thing does not fly.