The Silk Challenge

[Caitlin]

Still I think Pearl-Dreams suggestion was the best, two bracelets, strung by the same person and worn under the same conditions at a certain time has to be the most scientific way to get a result that is correct.

This is still knotty's idea and her challenge.

Since I am just a lowly beader, I do things like hang about 20 pearl necklaces in the bathroom right where Kether and I can grab some each morning. I also hang another 20 or so necklaces above my work table as I finish them, until Kether sells them. I like to hang my pearls, so I adjust my thread to match my style.

I may be old, but I am usually open to new ideas techniques and threads. I try to stay unburdened by presuppositions- and that includes silk thread. I respect Bernadette's opinion and it gave me courage to do what is clearly going against the tide of popular opinion about silk.

(If you haven't read Bernadette's posts, she is a professional pearl knotter, has done it for a living for years, worked for the Paspaleys and knows their secret invisible knotting technique, which she won't share- She has recently shared that she uses 4-6 threads, regular beading needles and prefers a nylon thread.)

I like that 4-6 threads Idea. Think I'll try it.

 

[knotty panda]

Well, gang. What's it going to be? I have a daily bracelet, AA quality, 7-7.5 MM, 25 pearls, so you have an idea of the weight. I'm fairly brutal with it compared to all y'all. I made last May or so. I measured it the other day and I actually think it's shrunk. Or ---

I can knot something I can be totally brutal with. I'm thinking about Swarovski crystals since they are supposed to have the same specific gravity as real pearls. But their drill holes are huge, 1MM, so I'm not sure I can knot that big. But I'm open for other suggestions if anyone has any.

The difference being, one has now become a part of me, conformed to my wrist and a newly knotted piece will need some breaking in.

So, let me know!

-------------------------
This is regarding invisible knotting. I have written and rewritten this post and I’m just not sure what I should and shouldn’t include. So, rather than saying too much, I’m going to say too little. What’s that called, erring on the side of caution? If you don’t like knotting as much as I do, you’re going to find this to be a real snoozefest anyway.

I’ve seen two different descriptions of the purpose of having invisible knotting. One is to have smaller knots, consequently called the “hidden knot” technique. The other goal is to minimize stretch, not eliminate it entirely.

I find it hard to believe that a company who has a reputation for using only the finest quality components in their products would use a stringing material that doesn’t meet that criteria. I also find it hard to believe a company would want to completely eliminate all stretch as not having stretch creates undue abrasion between the pearls.

My conclusion is a surgeon’s knot or some variation thereof might be a solution. Surgeon’s knots are long and lean. The majority of the knot can be concealed under the pearl with only the center of the knot exposed, in essence, a single strand of thread. Surgeon’s knots are used to minimize stretch. And, silk is/was a suturing material.

Now, on to why I don’t believe “no stretch” is a bad thing. I’ve posted about this before.

My interest in moving past the overhand technique is it is inadequate for the larger pearls strung on short strands, such as 16”. Market research on trends indicates pearl size, bigger, is what consumers want. I think this is borne out even in our little community.

The larger pearls create a smaller circumference when worn. Where a 16” 5MM strand might fit right on the collar bones, a strand of 13MM pearls would have to be longer to comfortably fit the same area of the neck. However, a small knot spacer on the 13MM strand will be worthless in minimizing pearl friction as the pearls now touch each other higher. Also, there is pull when the strand is placed on the neck. The space created between the drill holes on the 13MM strand is greater than the space created between the drill holes on the 5MM strand. If there is absolutely no stretch in the stringing material, the necklace wouldn’t lie properly.

So, with the larger pearls, you have a larger area of abrasion to counteract, and smaller knots don’t solve this problem. You have to balance the length of the strand, with the size of the pearls, and the spacer size. (Pearl math!)

Right now, I personally like rondelles which effectively solve the problem both physically and aesthetically. You have a larger, more attractive spacer, the pearls no longer knock themselves against each other, and you can conceal knots to your heart’s content beneath.

Having said all that, there is a self-knotting thread which could very well solve those problems as well. Right now it’s cost-prohibitive as it’s made for another application. I made a prototype which makes me think it’s a sound concept, but it’s just a prototype.

 

[GemGeek]

Also, I have some information about Paspaley invisible/no stretch knotting I think you might find interesting but I have to get the information together. Stay tuned.

Muah hah ha!!!

 

[Perle]

Hmm, Paspaley secrets? I might have to learn to knot after all!

Perle

 

[Bernadette]

Thanks Caitlin for the wrapup -but a minor correction is needed - I dont use Nylon - in fact I detest it (But as my hubby keeps arguing technology changes everything and Nylon today isnt the same as Nylon of yesterday).

But to get back to my thread of choice - it is a polycotton blend - I find it can be used off the reel without any preperation - and has given me good service for over 15 years of commercial work.

One last thing - I would consider a knot potentially less damaging to a pearl then using rondelles of any material. A rondelle can mark a pearls surface or become a trap for abrasion (Talking long term here) - a well formed knot is rather less likely to have this effect - and also cushions the pearls better.

Now for my attempt at humour - Self knotting thread - I thought they all where - just try dropping the spool across the floor (or letting the cat\dog get into your thread storage) and hey presto instant knots.

 

[Caitlin]

Hi Bernadette.
I thought Kay Gee was some kind of synthetic thread. Is Kay Gee thread a polycotton? What is a polycotton? That poly doesn't stand for polyamide does it?

None of the places carrying it have any description of what it is.

This one was listed as a polyamide thread HERE




Hi Mary

I think the problem with silk is that if it gets wet it can't dry easily inside the pearl and that is when it starts to stretch or rot.

The reason knotty posted in the first place was to use a silk thread in a bracelet she would wear for a month to demonstrate that it won't stretch or rot.

I do not like that griffon thread with a needle attched. It is not anywhere as easy to knot as two threads (one thread through a needle and knotted so it is double.) The two thread method makes it almost impossible to misplace a knot and no tweezers or awls are required so it goes much faster than picking up and putting down a tool everytime one does a knot. If you do have technique that works with one thread, I hope you will share it with us.

 

[Caitlin]

It has been 2 months since I moved Knotty's post to its own thread. When she edited that first post in March, she took out the part where she said she would take before and after pictures to prove that a properly prepared silk thread could stand up to daily wear and tear, like showers, washing dishes etc.

Well here is my report anyway. I was totally unable to find a spool of the YLI silk monofiliment thread in Tucson so I just went with the PowerPro. I wore the bracelet for 2 months never taking it off in showers for dishes or even when I was sweating.(It's already hot in Tucson) It has not changed one iota. (Pearls with PowerPro = Tough). If anything the pearls are even more shiny. Go figure. I had a hard time getting the color close. I must have shot the other one in a different light.

 

[knotty panda]

It has been 2 months since I moved Knotty's post to its own thread. When she edited that first post in March, she took out the part where she said she would take before and after pictures to prove that a properly prepared silk thread could stand up to daily wear and tear, like showers, washing dishes etc.

I remember saying I'd wear a bracelet my mother's day special bracelets that I wore for 6 months or so. My how time flies! But now I don't recall how long I said I would wear it without removing it. I just wish I could remember what prompted it. If I edited something, and I truly don't remember that, it is because since the thread was moved, it probably had no reference. All I know is, I didn't start this thread so I'm at a real loss as to the context of this thread.

But I'll be attacked for it over and over and I understand that, so I'll shrug and sigh yet again. If anyone can remember the context please post it and jog my memory. Thanks!

 

[Caitlin]

Hi knotty
You put that challenge right in the middle of the thread thread. I thought it deserved its own thread, since you were defending properly prepared silk against all comers and said you were going to show us all your test bracelet before and after, presumably to prove you are correct.

You edited it a full month after I moved it. I remember what you said before the edit, because I thought it is/was a great idea.

I don't understand why it upsets you that I did that. I often move posts that bring in a new subject, to their own thread. I thought it would be great. Not only to demonstrate that properly prepared silk thread does not stretch and can hold up to any abuse you wanted to throw at it, but that others could do the same thing. Pictures would be fab too, to let people see for themselves.

You could really put me in my place with some photos, because I wax silk thread and for heavy pearls, I used to wet it, then wax it---and it still stretches so bad I have to do it over- sometimes in days, sometimes in months.

I still think you should invest in a small camera to show your knotting work. It would be very helpful to us all if you illustrated your posts with your own photos. I have never seen a photo of any of your knotting, dear knottess, yet you have so many ideas about how to knot. Truly, I can't judge for myself which method I might like better, when you don't put up photos of your work......

I make myself vulnerable by putting up my work in photos, but if it is helpful for a beginner, so what? I would really appreciate your posts so much more, if you would actually show us what you mean.

 

[Pearl Dreams]

I've never tried PowerPro but that is one convincing photo, Caitlin.

Considering how much my silk knotted strands have stretched with minimal wear--even though I steamed-ironed the silk first to get the kinks out-- I think I might be trying PowerPro myself soon.

 

[Caitlin]

I really wish Power Pro came in more colors, but I got used to the moss green for black because it does look grayish. Also, it is a bit rougher on the hands than silk, however it does not cut at all- as one poster (who hasn't used it) claimed.
Here is a picture of a 60" rope I made with the white powerpro. I hang it doubled on a wall in the bathroom where it has a better humidity than most areas of Tucson. NO stretch at all. (Well it has a 4% stretch factor which does render it perfect for big heavy pearls.)

This one has been in existence for about a year (255 knots, if I remember correctly), hanging when worn and when not worn.

 

[Caitlin]

Here is a long heavy Klonk necklace. If I recall correctly the smallest pearl is 14mm perpendicular to the hole, the largest about 16mm. I hung this up in the bathroom too before I gave/traded it to another P-Ger.

 

[Caitlin]

Here is my "lumps of coal" necklace just a few hours after stringing on black, wet and waxed silk. I let it dry before I strung it up. You can see how stretched it is. grrr. This is the one that sent me on the quest for a better knotting thread.

Unlike most of you I use a lot of commercial grade beads. Large dyed blacks often have chips out of them. These came from Majestic ($10 a strand) a couple of years ago, they are the biggest klonks I have ever owned. My sister has them now. The necklace is about 30" long.

 

[knotty panda]

I'm not upset, I just confuse easily. Ok, I remember the thread thread. I'll go back read it to see if I jog my memory. Not trying to prove I'm right, but for me it works. At any rate, I'm still willing to post pics before and after, even though the before was almost a year ago! How long did I say for? I just don't recall.

 

[Caitlin]

Update, I am still wearing the same bracelet. It's been 9-10 months now. No Difference. It looks newly knotted and maintains spectacular luster, no abrasion on the pearls from the knots, knows still tight as the day I made it for this challenge. Waiting for batteries so I can make a photo.....

 

[barbie biggs]

So Caitlin:
Just out of curiosity, where's the picture?

barbie

 

[Caitlin]

I went outside today and managed to get one good pic before the batteries ran out. For better or worse, here it is:

I wore this for 1 year solid. Everyday. Through sweat, dirt, dish detergents and almost 365 showers.

 

[GemGeek]

Guess I'll have to pick up some Power Pro! And maybe you can show me your knotting technique!

 

[Pearlcat]

Wow -- what a pretty bracelet!

I love Power Pro. It's so much more forgiving and easier to work with than silk. However, I still use silk for darker dyed freshwaters.

By the way, the lowly beaders probably know this and I'm late to the table but Dandyline makes a black spectra line similar to PowerPro. There are a couple of caveats though. The first caveat: I usually use 20lb PowerPro doubled up, which works for most anything. The 20lb black Dandyline, although it's supposed to be identical diameter and strength, is definitely thinner. When I double it up, the knots are too small and pass through most pearls. I would recommend going with whatever you use with PowerPro plus 10lbs of strength to get an equivalent.

The second caveat is that the line isn't dyed but coated -- so your hands end up black when using it. The upside is that it's not too black and can work for a variety of darker color pearls.

Attached are pictures of pearls purchased from ebay seller LEI FAMILY JEWELRY-2 that I strung with Dandyline.

I would use Power Pro exclusively if it came in different colors!

 

[pattye]

Pearlcat, Just look at the colors on those! Excellent!! Looks terrific on you, I must add! What is the size on those?

Caitlin, your pearls look totally unharmed by their immersion in the elements!