Yokota Pearls

[Caitlin]

Honestly Honey and Lemon, it is you that started the conspiracy stuff.
A reaction that added nothing to the conversation except to try make me react and feel defensive.

I am done explaining myself. Just read what I said.

You asked for an explanation of the lower grades being labeled handama and I gave it to you- even while very aware that it is an explosive subject for that camp who disparages the term.

And guess what, you are the one who jumped the logic train and started using loaded language that could not be farther from the truth.

 

[Sea Urchin]

I am saying he says he is of the school that insists the word hanadama means nothing, even while he sells necklaces of lower than top AAA quality with that name. http://www.yokota-pearl.co.jp/english/hanadama.html

Why is no one hearing what I am saying?

That really muddies the water when other people think it is only for the top end of AAA or sellers who only certify the top end. Only some people want certified hanadama and those people want the top end of AAA certified as hanadama.

He did not discuss the various labs he mentioned or what their individual standards for giving the label are. Until he said 'labs' plural, I thought there was just one lab.

And while you are here, is the GIA privately owned? or it is a "public appraisal" lab? I suppose that means govt funded. If it is privately owned, he discounts it as legitimate.

In any case, no one has disparaged the company, just the way the term hanadama is used by the company.

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Assuming anyone is invited to join in this discussion, I understood what you said perfectly, Caitlin, and can't refute your logic.

 

[Caitlin]

I am tempted to link to an earlier discussion. But it mentions a company name I do not wish to publicize. This one is a step up from previous questions on the subject, because it is a Japanese source who operates on the same philosophy.

We are not the source of the conflict and I predicted what would happen before I ever started my first answer.

 

[Caitlin]

Here is what they say, language notwithstanding:

Recently, Hanadama Certificate appeared.
But each Laboratories issue Hanadama certificates are not public appraisal organizations, but just a private companies.
And they set their own "Hanadama grade" which are different from the original meaning mentioned above.

I thought they meant plural. It certainly seems so.

They may use the same lab, but it appears there are others as well. That was what I was asking for specifics about, much earlier

 

[Honey_and_Lemon]

I'm with you Gemgeek. All I wanted to know was if anyone had bought from Yokota pearls, and if they liked what they bought. Jeweljunke answered that question (she has even more photo's in her photo portfolio, its an impressive strand.)

You've answered my question about why they are selling "AA" and "AAA" strands both with optional Hanadama certificate. It's a cultural thing, clearly they are comfortable that their AA and AAA strands would get the certification if they were submitted to the JPSL.

It actually brings up an interesting point, as Yokota further subdivides their AA class into three grades, all available with optional Hanadama certificate.

 

[Caitlin]

GemGeek said:

There are quality differences among Hanadama strands - a spread just like he said. And they are certified by Japan Pearl Science Laboratory. I've seen higher quality certified hanadamas than Jeremy has, but they are way more expensive. The pearls in the photo look awesome, by the way.

Jeremy often has AAA akoya pearls that are good enough to send to Japan Science Laboratory to certify as Hanadama, but he doesn't because it's a pain in the rump.

your question:

Does anyone have experience with Yokota Pearls (http://www.yokota-pearl.co.jp/english/e-index.htm)?

They have a few ebay auctions up, for high dollar akoya strands and a website with some very nice Akoya strands up. They claim to be offering several grades of AA akoya, as well as necklaces priced at several layers above their Hanadama necklaces.

that's what you asked.

Gem Geek said nothing about certifying other grades than AAA, so I don't see how she answered your question. She ONLY talked about AAA.

And certifying those other grades is what is the problem. It makes a hash of the hanadama designation. And that is the problem.

 

[pearlescence]

Hanadama is a certification that specific pearls meet a specific standard as specified by the Pearl Science Laboratory in Japan. (and possibly other labs) Hanadama is probably a trade name or brand owned by them in the way that the pearls could be called Absofabuluso grade if I set up a pearl lab and started examining pearls against a set of criteria. It costs something around $75 for that examination.
If a pearl meets the criteria and the owner pays the fee then the certificate is issued.
We know that there is tremendous variation in pearl gradng. an AAA pearl strand can have marks, some pearls can be off round, the lustre needn't be stupendous. Some sellers start talking about AAAAAA+++++ and that is silly, even for the finest, roundest shiniest pearls. Responsible sellers grade those pearls still AAA and throw in a metallic rider. There are pearls above AAA metallic though..there is mirror metallic.
So...some sellers get Hanadama certificates for every possible akoya pearl and (pass on the cost in their pricing no doubt) and some of the pearls which meet the certification standard may be gradable as AA+. While others don't bother because it bumps up the price, and yet some more offer it as an option.
Just as there are various pearl labs around the world, all pobably using slighly different criteria for assessing pearls, so there may, it seems be different Hanadama certifying labs. The point that unless it is a goverment lab and therefore without commercial pressures it can be argued that the certificate is not of great value is a valid one, because commercial pressure will apply to get pearls certified (all those $75s.) People won't send pearls in to the lab if they don't get a certificate. Who is going to send their pearls in and pay $75 when they don't et a certificate. So little by little the standard drops.
It may well be that the Hanadama certification is worthless in reality but it is still hanging in there as the perceived top standard. Just as I argued years ago here that natural pearl certification is worthless when it is so hard to tell the difference between natural river pearls and some cultured (I mean, obviously you can tell between naturals and bead nucleated).
A practiced eye can tell just about as much

 

[GemGeek]

If a strand of akoyas is certified as Hanadama by Japan Pearl Science Laboratory, it is Hanadama-grade because it meets the minimum standards. If someone's AA strand met the standards, then they have an odd grading system. The only laboratory recognized as certifying Hanadamas is Japan Pearl Science Laboratory. Guidelines are issued (FTC, Cibjo), but people selling pearls can call their pearls any grade they want as long as there is no authority with the power to police them.

GIA is a non-profit institute.

 

[GemGeek]

Oh and a company does use the name Hanadama, but they sell all kinds of pearls so it's meaningless as a brand name.

 

[GemGeek]

Yokota must use AA Hanadama as a designation that it's a mid-level Hanadama grade. It's obvious from the photos that the pearls are very fine quality. It's hard to imagine having enough pearls to distinguish the subtleties.

 

[Caitlin]

[FONT=&quot]Wendy, that was a lot of work! and Pragmatically, what you say is correct.

However.
This is how Pearl-Guide defines hanadama: [/FONT]

[FONT="]hanadama:[/FONT][/B][FONT="] Highest quality portion of a cultured akoya pearl harvest.[/FONT]

This is how Pearl Paradise defines hanadama:

Hanadama Akoya pearls are the finest akoya pearls produced in the world today. After every pearl harvest in Japan, the pearls are separated into graded lots to be sold direct to processing factories or at live auctions. Of the separated lots, there is always one lot that is treated differently - these pearls are referred to in Japanese as hanadama akoya pearls. They are the pearls selected from the harvest due to their remarkable luster, surface and overall quality. These pearls are handled and sold as a separate product.

Much like diamond certification in the United States, before a strand or pair of hanadama akoya pearls can be marketed as hanadama, they must first go through laboratory testing in Japan. The most respected laboratory that conducts this test is known as the Pearl Science Laboratory of Japan. At the laboratory, technicians examine and grade the average nacre thickness, and they evaluate the luster and surface quality. A base minimum of excellence in each category is required to achieve the grading level of hanadama.

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OK So we have a situation as if someone came over here and asked us about A, AA, and AAA gradings, stating that Ebay sellers use AAAAA+++++, so aren't their pearls better?



The answer is there is no legal standard for any grade of pearl, including hanadama, so it it up to the interpreter to define these grades for themselves.
Many reputable pearl sellers describe their akoya pearls from A-AAA and define what each grade means somewhere on their website. And the better sellers have higher, not lesser definition for the grades.


Originally, the definition of hanadama was reserved for the cream of the AAA grade, and is still how hanadama is defined on this site and on Pearl Pearl Paradise's site, so you will never get a grade AA pearl with a hanadama certificate from many sellers, though apparently you can from some others. Does that mean the definition of "Hanadama" includes the lower grades? Of course, not!

Just because some merchants call inferior grades AAA or AA+ or whatever, does not mean much unless you know their definition of the grade. Many sellers cheat on these grades or exploit them for sales. However, I would hold in disregard any seller that tries to sell you less than the top half of the AAA harvest as hanadama. They are using a word that was defined as the highest quality and are applying it to lesser qualities. Does that mean no one should use and define hanadama as the best, anymore?

No more than people should quit using the A-AAA scheme because some eBay sellers degrade their qualities in their own wares so as to seem as good as the wares of people who apply those grades. Just because one can get Hanadama certificates for any grade, apparently, as one can one get A-AAAAA in some schemes does not mean the definition has changed.

It means beware of sellers who do not hold to this standard. So what if some people grade those standards to make their own wares seem better? That does not make it correct or right.

It means look at how dealers define their grades and choose someone that has clear definitions and sticks by them.

What really gets me about this conversation is, I detest akoya pearls for many reasons. I detest most of the schlock that is sold out there because akoyas went through a stage where minimal nacre was fine and many still push thin skinned akoyas. Akoyas are barely barely dipped in the oyster, compared to any other type of cultured pearls. I will never wear one, I will never buy one. I will never sell one. I think they are the first gropings in pearl cultivation and all the standards have slipped, since my Mother in Law bought her first strand in the 1930's. I vastly prefer the solid nacre of the freshwater pearl and keshi from SS and Tahitians. The one exception I have to make is for cultured Sea of Cortez pearls. And their quality is strictly controlled by the owners.

So to sum up. Anyone who sells less than the top half of the AAA harvest as a hanadama is lowering the standard, adulterating it, but just because some do that is not reason to change the definition to meet the lower standards. It also means that people who want proof they have a minimum of .4 nacre, can get it, as pathetic as 4mm is.


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[pearlescence]

Caitlin, as you know, I don't stock akoya.
The problem, as I perceive it, is that there is no objective assessmnt criteria standard for pearls. While some of us possibly underplay grades and attempt to moderate eachothers gradings (and I was very pleased that my gradings were spot on against Jeremy's last year) even with a non profit there is a certain impetus to keep the money coming in. Fail too many strands which just teeter on one side of the line or the other and pretty soon your revenue goes down and you're out of business. That is, to some extent, what has happened in education here in the UK. Different exam setting bodies for schools, and universities have managed to drive down standards by trying very hard not to fail students and to award the highest grades. Some institutions have managed to hold to a standard (my own university faculty used to award one first a year max, to someone totally outstanding, while others dole out firsts to half a cohort. The problem is that the universities are ranked partly on how many firsts are awarded..so, pressure to award firsts and every year the grade bands go up by one or two marks.
Until the pearl industry manages to create some objective rather than subjective criteria for grading this will always be a problem. However, the forum can do a small part by rubbishing as a nonsense anyone who claims their pearls are something more than AAA. And what is museum grade? Another hyperbole!

 

[GemGeek]

Other labs may certify Hanadama strands, and they may do so correctly according to the parameters, but Japan Pearl Science Laboratory is recognized as definitive.

My earrings from PP are certified Hanadamas and they are 0.4 mm. My necklace from PP is 0.55 mm. Hanadama certification requires a minimum of 0.4 mm thickness. That is a fact.

 

[GemGeek]

GIA pearl reports do not assign grades. If you order a classification report, they will evalutate the luster from excellent to poor, the surface from clean to heavily spotted and the matching from excellent to poor. (Smart of them not to get involved in letter grades on pearls.)

Identification Reports (PIDT) specify the quantity, weight, size, shape, color, origin (natural or cultured and type of nucleation), mollusk (if determinable), environment (saltwater or freshwater), and any detectable treatments.
Classification Reports (PR) include all of the Identification Report information as well as classifications for luster, surface and matching (if applicable).

Sample indentification report: http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/pearls/pearl-reports/pearl-identification-report.pdf

 

[Caitlin]

OK I got that. I did not look it up before I spouted. I have a memory of some.6+, though.

Still, I don't like them and I know you can't even drill a pearl that thin. .4mm. I have some abalone pearls that tiny from antz and there is no electric drill small enough to drill them. I have been told- only in India -with a hand bow. The only akoya necklace I like the looks of is Geek's untreated one- which Yakota appeared to poo poo as untreated.

Until there are world standards, there is a group of people who will not call a AA pearl an AAA nor call less than an AAA, hanadama. Stick with those people, not the ones who redefine grades to suit their own agendas.

Hey Wendy, I did not realize you don't sell akoyas.

Apparently the akoya market is a much bigger racket than I had ever supposed. LOL. Buy akoyas at your own risk. You never know how thin that nacre is without an xray.

 

[GemGeek]

I meant 4 mm nacre thickness on the bead at any one point.

 

[Caitlin]

I know. I was commenting on how thin that actually is- and I compared it to an actual pearl that size.

IMO akoya is not about thick nacre. Even at its thickest, it is as thin as possible without blinking. And anything over that is practically hanadama. Even if people were not abusing the terms.

The professional measure is the way the GIA does it and that is fairly mysterious to most buyers, so at last look, most reputable sellers are still selling the various grades as they define them and watching others abuse that unwritten convention.

If Yakota is defining subtle grades within the hanadama range, I missed that. Though his example is a beautiful necklace, it is obviously not what most would call AA grade. It is higher than that, or the photos are enhanced. And the price is worthy of Mikimoto himself.

Bottom line, that is what branding is about and Miki and Hanadama are both just attempts to brand. Apparently the hanadama brand has been debased by some.

I doubt very many akoyas will withstand 400 years of being passed down and worn. They are now a disposable commodity with built-in obsolescence- pretend pearls for a disposable age. I learned that Hanadamas were the among best of the lot. And that is still how I define them, in spite of there being other camps who define them differently.

 

[GemGeek]

I agree, Caitlin, except that Hanadama is not a brand, but a classification that has a distinct measure. So if people are throwing around the term Hanadama for pearls that would not pass the evaluation, then shame on them. It never ceases to amaze me how far some sellers will go to make a buck.

 

[Amanda]

I looked at that link - there really are a lot of people around with more money than sense!

 

[GemGeek]

The photo is disappointing for the dollar amount, for sure.