Elephant Pearl

[sumavapersians]

elephant pearl forum, to Slraep

elephant pearl forum, to Slraep

Hi Slraep.
Sorry I didn't know anything about Zeide. I know am making lots of errors and want to apologize again!
Well, about your question, I never tell about my Gaja Muktha comes from.
I only took some pictures to show to members of this forum as I could share this pearl with everybody of all of you, NEVER to try to sell it. It's not for sale. I don't say somebody is saying that but wanted to clarify this point.
Another thing is this pearl is not human hand carved is a natural ivory bead. Somebody can believe it or not, is not my problem. I like it, it's all. I wanted to add this pearl is really antique, not "made" nowadays.
Ignacio

 

[pattye]

Hi Ignacio,

We hope you will find here many other pearls to interest you.

Pattye
so many pearls, so little time

 

[Caitlin]

HI Ignacio
I am willing to grant that you have an old elephant ivory bead. that is exactly what it looks like.

However, until someone like the guy who wrote the Pearl World article looks at it through a microscope and rules out that it was manufactured, it is not authenticated.

I do believe lots of people have "gaji muktha" beads. There are several illustrations of them on this thread. What is not clear to me is that they really did occur naturally at the base of the elephant's tusk.

Secondly, if they do, it is not clear with what frequency they have been found.

What is clear is that they are for sale and easily obtainable by anyone with a small amount of money. The market value is so low, it does not reflect the apparent rarity of this occurance.

That fact alone makes me want to see provenance and authentication. Otherwise we are dealing with a religious artifact, not a natural occurance.

 

[Valeria101]

Secondly, if they do, it is not clear with what frequency they have been found.

[...] The market value is so low, it does not reflect the apparent rarity of this occurrence.

Not sure if rarity always brings in the cash... some things can be too rare for their own (financial) good.

Gee... I can really see myself digging into this story and mailing every Vet specializing in pachyderms until either I get too frustrated or too tired by the exercise.

What if there really are elephant pearls around? Since they have little recognition in the 'western' culture, media and gemology at least apparently, maybe the subject just escaped. Not so long ago I was doing the same for red pearls... I doubt this round of investigation can get any less fruitful. The other one turned out fun, after all

 

[Caitlin]

Hi Ana
Maybe your research ability will turn something up. As I said before, there are lots of elephant pearls around. I just doubt (99%) they came from the root of the tusk as a freeform pearl. If Zeide's guess was correct ????, (and heaven only knows what she pulled that figure out of) they occur once in 8,000 elephants. This level of rarity means there could only be a few of them around.

Even if every natural elephant pearl ever found is still owned by someone. It would take over 800,000 elephants to collect even one gaji mana......!!!

There are so many around, if they are all natural, it means there were hundreds of elephants with them growing--- not just one in 8k.

So far they either appear in pairs that match (my doubt goes up to 99.9% on those) and/or they have marks of workmanship on them as per the article cited earlier.

My instincts say that the ones sold through the bezoar businesses can't be naturally grown.

And my bottom line is so what if they are manufactured? They still have the elephant vibe for all intents and purposes.

So, I am taking the postition that until we find one with no marks of workmanship, they are an urban legend. Or a Indian/Ceylonese elephant tale. The fact I am taking this position does not mean I am 100% sure, it just means, "Prove it!"

 

[luvjfk]

Elephant Pearl

i am very much interested in this topic so i joined this forum.. My Friend has come from India & has Brought With him an "Elephant Pearl" I call it so b'cos we have got it tested from Dubai Central Laboratory which is registered with CIBJO...
it is an astonishing 642.56ct I am attaching a copy of the certificate for your refence .. pls let me know what you think .. also he is willing to sell it .......


Luv

 

[luvjfk]

Sorry i wasnt able to upload the pict 2day but i shall upload it 2moro..

 

[Caitlin]

I eagerly await an official elephant pearl.

 

[Slraep]

Yes, Caitlin, me too. Me too.

Slraep

 

[Josh]

Wow, was it produced inside an elephant?

 

[Valeria101]

Wow, was it produced inside an elephant?

The legend goes that these are concretions formed inside anomalous teeth of large herbivores and pachyderms (beasts with continuous tooth growth). Why 'legend'? Because the items are semi mythical and none of the major gemological laboratories have obtained any positive evidence of such items so far. Between GIA, AGTA, AGS, Gubelin, GRS, SSEF, GGAJ, The Australian, British and Canadian Gemological Associations and a couple more I keep track of publications from, the only article about these pearls documents a hoax

But I'm not saying that I do not believe such items exist. Lab silence just tells me that these pearls aren't really of interest to gemologists, yet. Or the other way around. I would rather ask veterinary dentists about elephant pearls then gemologists.

That's all I know.

The lab in Bahrain is quite the pearl hub. CAN'T WAIT to see that report!

 

[luvjfk]

Hi Guys this is part of the Certificate i am talking about .. I hav emailed the the full Certificate to one of the Senior Pearl Experts Here..Hoping they will upload the same..Waiting for your Veiws....

Luv

 

[Caitlin]

That is a lousy picture. I hope to see a better one.

hav emailed the the full Certificate to one of the Senior Pearl Experts Here..

And who would that be?

This does not look like any other "elephant pearl" previously uploaded here. The certificate says it is cut?

I wonder what authority/training the Cibjo approved lab in Dubai has in elephant pearls as biologically naturally occurring objects?

After all, the Pearl of Allah was not authenticated as a genuine clam pearl by jewelers who have no experience of clam pearls, it was authenticated by the head curator of the invertebrates at the most prestigious private MUSEUM in the country (Dr. Ralph Miner of the AMNH) who was an expert on unusual mollusk pearls including those from a giant clam.

The jewelers who have been "appraising" the Pearl of Allah ever since, have been laughable to fraudulent - so far. They are completely out of their depth and can only update the original fraudulent valuation to include inflation estimates!

And Ana is right, the only believable report so far by a respected scientist has been to say the "elephant pearls" he has looked at were not naturally occurring because they were worked by human hands and show microsopic marks of exactly what kind of instrument was used to carve them.

I am not doubting that there are valuable and ancient cultural objects designated as "elephant pearls"- I am asking for biological confirmation that they are not human made,however long ago. If someone has a reliable provenance of an elephant pearl that has been in a family for generations, it still does not authenticate the object as something that came from the root of an elephant's tusk which was formed by the elephant in situ- it indicates a tradition of the object being called that, regardless of actual origin.

And I guess the Dubai lab doesn't have the credentials to prove that an elephant pearl is naturally occuring...they can only comment on it as an object with a cultural value and tradition.

The pearl itself really should take an biologist expert in elephants to authenticate the reality of elephant pearls in general as well as the fact that the object in question really occurred spontaneously in a natural origin.

Believe me, if there were such a thing in biology, they would be in the scientific text books. The absolute silence of elephant scientists on the subject indicates that either all the scientists are ignoring them or none has ever seen one.

So far, I see only evidence for a religious/cultural object, not a biologic occurance.

I would embrace it, if an authority with the proper credentials demonstrates the verity of a single claim.




Sorry

 

[Valeria101]

Click on the thumbnail to see whole lab report.



The array of tests done for identification sounds serious. And there's EXDRF (X-Ray Fluorescence Spectrometry) on top of the basics...

Wonder how many such pearls they examine! Can't see any publications etc. This must be the least expected, most exotic and interesting material posted here to date.... The pearl doesn't look like anything I could imagine.

Thanks!


Of course, the 'Pearl Expert' name tag here does not make me a pearl expert. This is the first time I see a lab report of an elephant pearl!

 

[luvjfk]

Thanks Ana for posting the full Certificate..
Mr. Williams what do you have to say now after seeing the full Lab Report with the type of tests done on it.. the Lab report called it a cut stone b'cos it is derived from the tusk.. it is obviously removed from it, not found lying there for people to just take it...(like a Pearl in an Oyster)..I didnt even talk about the Certificate that He got it done in india..as i thought U would hold the Dubai Lab Report more Valid!!!!!!!


Luv

 

[Slraep]

Shouldn't authentic certificates have a file number where you can call the lab up to double check that they actually issued it and for what.

Yes, why would it say "cut stone" when an elephant pearl is supposedly dentin whuch is minerals, collagen and water. That would be like saying a regular pearl is a stone.

I think their calling it an elephant pearl is really broad.

It looks very much like Russian(Siberian) mammoth ivory. The colour is right for that. That's probably why they call it a stone. It's been calcified for as much as 50,000 years---making it quite "stone" like. You cannot distinguish between modern elephant ivory and mammoth ivory, so if going by the colour, I would again say it is the latter.

Slraep

 

[Caitlin]

Hi Luv
That's Mrs. Williams . I am an old lady. Caitlin is pronounced Kate-lynn.

I agree that that has no resemblance to any other elephant pearl seen on this forum or in a web search.

The question is not whether it is a valuable relic termed an elephant pearl, the question is where and how did it originate? Did it spontaneously grow at the base of an elephant's tusk to be revealed when the elephant died and its carcass was deprived of its tusks? Or did it originate through human hands?

Curious- what are the limitations and conditions recorded on the back of the certificate? Sounded like some kind of caveat, so let's banish that conjecture by posting the back side of the lab report too.

It describes the object as a calcified concretion. At the bottom it said

"This calcified concretion may also be called an "elephant pearl" in the trade."

I see the "in the trade" as a caveat. Then it defined elephant pearl as a rounded pulp stone coming from the tusk of an elephant, which is correct only in the loosest terms. Not the level of descripton I would expect from a CIBJO approved lab.

Is it dentine? Or what is it? Is it a stone? Dentine and stones are not the same, but I need the research on their chemical compositon. CIBJO is prepared to analyse rubies for their natural origin and has standards to do so and definitively tell them from treated or fake (made by human hands) stones. I doubt they have a standard for this object that meets their own criteria for authenticity.

Again, it has been reinforced as a cultural/religious object, but not necessarily as an authentic natural formation from the base of the elephant's tusk. The fact it has been carved may complicate viewing under high magnification whether it was made by human hands.

I think you are on the right path luv, but your story is still full of holes. Plug them up and I will gladly concede.

Is it possible to get some better pictures? It really is fascinating, wherever it came from.

 

[Slraep]

What do you think??

http://www.nature-source.com/mammothivory.htm

Slraep

 

[GemGeek]

I wonder about the report. Polariscope is checked off as one of the tests, which would be useless with this material.

 

[Slraep]

A funny exerpt from the Halfbakery website about mammoth ivory:



"Mammoth Ivory Prospecting
Take advantage of melting icecaps to prospect for mammoth ivory

Ok, billionare investors, listen up. Elephants have been going extinct for some time now, and therefore it has been and still is illegal to kill them for ivory. So ivory is more valuable than ever, but there is only one legitimate source for it; extinct mastadons/wolly mammoths. (Well, maybe you can collect it from dead modern elephants, but it sounds like a lot of red tape.) So the other eco-disaster that can help one cash in on this-- global warming! Icecaps and glaciers all over the world are melting, no doubt exposing more and more frozen mammoths, maybe even depositing their remains in glacial rock fields. So why not go looking for tusks? Combine existing and commissioned satellite photos, big double-bladed helicopters, and hardy Alaskan guys with shovels and/or Thermite bombs-- and bring back a whole lotta white gold. -BJL"

bjl8, Sep 05 2006