What is fair feedback?

[snufflepig]

Hi again, I'd really like some help on the proper way to assess an eBay seller when leaving feedback (and thought this might be useful to more than just myself). I have had great experiences on eBay, but some of the items I've received were not well packaged or didn't arrive in the condition I expected. Obviously contacting the seller is an option, and so is returning the item. Here are two examples I'd like to ask about in particular, and hopefully I can get a better idea of how to address these things in the future.

-Ordered a ring and pair of earrings. They were packed in a very tiny envelope in bubble wrap, and the filigree got rather bent on the earrings. Not wanting to return them--using my usual rule, I didn't pay more than what I was willing to pay, and it isn't -that- noticeable when I wear them--but the fact that the earrings were so bent up in the mail (I really hope it was the mail and that they weren't shipped like this) is a concern. It seems like the sort of thing one would mention in feedback (not as negative feedback, but I'd find that useful as a potential buyer.) Also, I did have to -pay- for shipping, in one of those "X amount for first item, X amount more for second item" deals, and they make a note on their site that what you pay for shipping includes all their hard work in packaging it, as well as the shipping cost. So I was really surprised that they weren't packed better and that they arrived as they did. They had a notice in the envelope (no invoice, but a notice,) that says "PLEASE CONTACT OUR 800 NUMBER IF NOT SATISFIED" or something along those lines. It's one of those many jewelry sellers that insists that you contact them before leaving anything other than glowing feedback. So here's my dilemma. I really do like the items, but feel they should have been better protected from damage in the mail. If I contact their number, they may do an exchange of some kind, but that's not worth the hassle. I also feel that in light of their disclaimer and high shipping costs, other buyers deserve to know BEFORE they buy that they may receive a damaged item... and the filigree ring is so thin I'm surprised it came out alive. Thoughts?

-In one of my "fake pearl" purchases, I got an authentic vintage double strand of Trifari pearls (the company history is so interesting!) The description said that the item showed "some wear," as is expected of a piece that is estimated (by the seller) to be an early Trifari piece (and it isn't a later one, that's for sure). It was said to be about 15" long. So, first problem is that the necklace is actually 14.5 inches from one end of the clasp to the other, on the shorter strand (about a quarter inch shorter when you put the clasp together). I can't close it around my neck, so I thought to myself, well, maybe I could give it to my sister, since she's much more... "fashionable" anyway. But upon closer examination, the necklace is quite dirty and the "some wear" means that the coating has worn all the way through in many places on many of the beads. I'm afraid to clean it, lest I remove more of the coating. I really do like the necklace, and if it could somehow be restored I'm sure I could at least get my money back for it, but obviously I can't -wear- it. The cost of shipping it here + shipping it back + restocking fee would be more than half of what I paid for the item, so I'm thinking, not worth it. I do feel that the description was inaccurate--for example, if it really had measured 15", I could have worn it. Advice/thoughts on feedback?

What I don't want to do is cause a lot of drama over this, and while my diplomacy skills aren't lacking, the way eBay has set up this new system (note: after I had already won these auctions) makes me very nervous.

One more point of potential discussion, what exactly do we think of those sellers who offer to "exchange" positive feedback, or who try to set their own criteria for what constitutes a 5-star policy? I understand it in the context of "this is what you can expect from our excellent shop!" but I've also seen it where they try to say "do not leave us negative feedback if we have met the above criteria." Understanding that there are a LOT of pain in the bum buyers out there (or just "folks with high expectations,) it still seems that it's up to the buyer to decide for themselves... also understanding that negative feedback can cause problems for the seller, I've seen back and forth where negative feedback was left for a buyer simply for pointing out a mistake or inaccuracy on the seller's part, as though it's revenge. In a marketplace that is based so much on trust -- trust that the item is as described, that it did or didn't get lost in the mail, that it was or wasn't damaged upon arrival, etc -- this sometimes gives me a prickly feeling like some mobster has his arm around my shoulder and is saying, "you like it, eh? Well you better like it."

Any sellers have feedback? Any buyers? Anybody who might know about care and restoration of vintage Trifari pearls??

To end this on a positive note, the $3 pair of pearl earrings I got from China turned out perfect. Can't tell whether they're freshwater or Akoya, (supposed to be akoya and they may not have much nacre), but don't really care they go nicely with the solitaire I bought before, and they're great for everyday casual, cheap to replace if they get worn out too!

 

[Pearl Dreams]

Have you ever posted on eBay boards? You might wish to explore that-- go on the buyers board or on the feedback board-- you will get some good advice.

 

[snufflepig]

Haven't posted, no. I've been trying to read previous posts to find similar issues, I find it a little tricky to sort through... and kind of scary. Lots and lots of dubious feedback practices, such as recommending you leave feedback and then block someone (a buyer) before they can leave feedback in return, trashing both buyers and sellers, name calling. It's worse than most online video game forums as far as ranting goes and not much better for common sense content. I'm still working on it... some of it is humorous, but mostly I'm just hoping I don't wind up doing business with most of the people posting here.

 

[Pearl Dreams]

Okay, I'll have a go at it. Let me reread the post and tackle each issue.

 

[Pearl Dreams]

First, the sellers cannot leave negative feedback to buyers any more-- it is actually impossible. And if they leave negative remarks with a positive green donut, the comments will be removed by eBay if the buyer reports it. So do not be afraid of feedback retaliation.

That said, be aware that since all buyers now have 100% positive feedback, the only way sellers can decide who to block (if they think a buyer might be hard to please or leave them bad feedback) is to check the buyers' feedback left-- which is easy to check using toolhaus.org. So if your feedback left for sellers contains neutrals or negatives or even negative sounding comments about the items you bought or the sellers, it may come back to bite you later when you try to bid and find your bids canceled.

Should buyers sometimes leave negative/neutral feedback or comments? Certainly. Bad sellers need to be outed. Just choose your battles.

The filigree earrings-- were you able to bend them back into shape? If so, just contact the seller (clicking "other" to avoid opening a case) and inform her of what happened. They may want to rethink their packaging, or then again, they may feel that they can afford to replace a few items here and there. I would leave no feedback in this case, personally.

You always have the option of leaving no feedback or of leaving a feedback but no stars. If you do leave stars, be aware that eBay considers any thing less than 5 stars to be bad, so think twice before dinging the stars. Do it if you must, though...just realize that sellers can often tell who dinged them and you may not be able to buy from that seller again (blocked.)

If the earrings were not able to be fixed, take a photo of the damaged item and attach it to the message to the seller. Use the link for item not being as described and ask the seller for a refund. You can ask for a return shipping label-- they may give you one, or not. You can decide not to send back at that point. They may even just tell you to keep the bent one and send you a refund (or replacement) anyway. If the seller makes you whole without any cost to you, leave a positive and state that the seller replaced or refunded the damaged item and made you whole. Might as well encourage the seller to keep doing the right thing.

If they tell you to return the item for refund or replacement, choose refund-- the replacement will likely be shipped the same way and may also be bent. I think you could leave a neutral saying that the earrings were not packed well enough and arrived bent but were not worth sending back. I would not leave a negative.

The Trifari pearls are clearly not as described and you should open a case to ask for a refund. Again, take photos supporting your complaint and attach them to the message. Again, try asking for a return shipping label. He may tell you to keep the necklace and refund you, but he is within his rights to only refund if you return the item-- but I'm afraid that would be a reason for me to leave less than positive feedback since it was in such poor condition.

EBay sellers are very pressured these days. Try to empathize; be kind whenever you can.

 

[snufflepig]

I agree with you completely. That's part of what's scaring me on the eBay forums. I wanted to take some items off people's hands when I joined eBay, mostly... I actually use the things I buy, so buying new/expensive just doesn't usually make sense for me (maybe when I no longer have an active seven year old). I don't expect or necessarily care about perfection. It does seem that life is much harder for sellers than for buyers. The reverse of that coin is that I wind up feeling very sheepish if the seller really doesn't do things properly. I think I'll probably back off eBay until they change their policies and make things more fair; it's too much to hope that random people on the internet will suddenly become more fair as a group. Still have my last few purchases trickling in (along with my experimental pearls, which I am already aware will be hit or miss). Thanks for your careful consideration of my post, I feel much better Very glad to have found P-G, an internet resource that is (gasp) reliable.

Note... apparently eBay is having issues or has made life even more of a pain in the butt... because the seller of the necklace has a "full refund" policy, it's not giving me the option to resolve a problem, it keeps trying to direct me right back to returning the item. No wonder eBay makes everyone so frustrated!

 

[Pearl Dreams]

I hate to say it but eBay is not likely to improve...it seems to me that most of the changes they've made over the past half-dozen years or so have been poorly thought out. I buy anyway, but am careful. In my earlier years of buying I ended up with a lot of not-as-described things and just stopped buying in that category. I also do not tend to buy from outside the USA (only things I would not return regardless) since we once had to pay a lot of money to return a valuable item to Canada with tracking.

Also-- there is no way to fix those Trifari pearls.

 

[Pearl Dreams]

...
Note... apparently eBay is having issues or has made life even more of a pain in the butt... because the seller of the necklace has a "full refund" policy, it's not giving me the option to resolve a problem, it keeps trying to direct me right back to returning the item. No wonder eBay makes everyone so frustrated!

If you feel that getting a refund (even if you have to pay return shipping) is better than having unusable strand of fake pearls, I'd go ahead and return them.

 

[Daddys Little Pearl]

I understand you are wanting to find "bargains", and yes ebay does have those, but those bargains usually come with a lot of ebay problems. I buy there only from sellers I know something about. Have you tried looking around on etsy? I don;t sell there, but I buy there a lot, and they also have a lot of bargains for beaders and jewelry hounds. Again I have also had some problems there, but only a few and most of the sellers there are very friendly and eager to please their customers. I myself sell on rubylane and buy there some too, it is more expensive, but I have scored some real bargains there as well. I definitely prefer both of these venues to ebay.
Unfortunately, today you have to be careful regardless of where you shop on the internet unless you deal with the more prominent stores that have good return policies, guarantees, etc. I have a lot of friends that also shop the goodwill auctions and have gotten great deals there, although everything is sold as is and not returnable.

 

[Pearl Dreams]

Also there should be no restocking fee for an item that was returned for not being as described (although there could be such a fee for a return based on buyer regret.)
I'm sure the seller will be required to refund your entire initial payment (including original shipping) if you file a case, but you will have to prove the seller received the necklace back (so you have to use delivery confirmation when you send it back.)

I'm not sure if you can purchase delivery confirmation at the post office counter any more unless you insure; the last time I insured a package at the P.O. I looked in vain for the DC form and was told it doesn't exist any more-- the insurance number is now the tracking number. But if one doesn't insure the package I'm not sure if one can get DC for it.

 

[Daddys Little Pearl]

Oops, forgot to answer your original question, as to what is fair feedback. the ebay feedback system is a sham. So I usually post no feedback at all. Most of the dishonest sellers have near perfect feedback anyway, your comment won't really hurt them, and it could hurt you in the future. If you feel you need to post feedback, I would post neutral and state the item was not as described, etc. But remember, if they made it good for you, you should not post anything other than positive for them. Most of the bad items I have received from ebay sellers was not due to their dishonesty but to ignorance of what they were selling; even some sellers that have been doing this a long time make mistakes. Selling on ebay is a terribly hard way to make a living.

 

[snufflepig]

Wow! I already got refunded for the necklace, very kind message from the seller, equally desirous to see it get a happy home. Perhaps it can yet be cleaned up & restrung (I didn't want to accidentally damage them further in case they needed to be returned), it's very pretty & would look amazing on someone. Most of the feedback does indeed seem to be a scam, but I'm always hopeful that things will change for the better. Money and the internet both tend to bring out the worst in some people. I'll take my small victories and keep watching for updates/changes in the meantime!

Thanks for all the thoughts, everyone here is so sensible! When I start looking for more "serious" jewelry purchases it does seem that Etsy is a good way to go, and when I get finished moving I'll be looking into it. I've used it a few times for craft supplies that are hard to find elsewhere, and have been very happy with it. And now that I've found P-G I know some people who can help me find what I'm looking for!

 

[thoseriches]

Scenario 1. Earrings and ring squashed in the post. If they have given you an 800 number to ring if you are not satisfied, this indicates that they value their feeback and will probably be keen to work it out with you. Give them a ring and give them the opportunity, see what solution they offer. Then decide on appropriate feedback.

Scenario 2. Was the condition of the necklace misrepresented ? or did you not do enough research about what you were buying ? enlarge pictures and look at them closely, ask questions about the condition ? Did you pay a price that was for a necklace in ex condition or did you pay a throw away price ? Did the add state that the necklace had some damage or blemishes ? Were your expectations of a necklace that age realistic ? Again I would contact the seller and see what they can offer before leaving feedback.

I am a careful and diligent buyer with 100 purchases on e-bay of mostly vintage jewellery. I have never had to leave negative feedback and have never been dissapointed with a purchase. I have once not received an item, I politely contacted the seller and received a full refund and decided not to leave feedback because I never received the item and therefore could not fairly rate some of their stars.

I have been to the e-bay boards and I often wonder why they are in a retail business when they seem to hate customers so much.

 

[pattye]

This is a subject we all have some concerns over. I have bought on ebay since 2004, mostly pearls and related pearl jewelry items, less in the last few years because I learned about Gem Fair and prefer to buy in person when possible. I tend to find sellers I can trust, do repeat buys, realizing that the items I purchase will be closer to a reasonable wholesale price than "OMG, what a steal of a deal!"

I've also done some selling on ebay since 2008, mostly non pearl jewelry items, not made by me, that I have collected over the years, many unworn. I most often use set prices, BIN, not auctions. More chance of buyers remorse with an auction, and not necessarily more money for the item being sold, imho. Have not bought an auction item for a few years. I've had buyers politely make an offer, which is ok with me, sometimes a listing has been up long enough and has little general interest or watchers.

It seems like each different category of items has its challenges.

What I expect are good clear photos, there is no reason as one can put up 12 photos free in each listing. I would probably not buy from someone that doesn't have a high 99.+%.

If an issue arises, as has occasionally in the past, I go directly to the seller, explain the problem and what I feel is a fair resolution. I stay away from the ebay boards. Threatening a buyer in the listing doesn't create good will or do anything to facilitate a good transaction.

If one pays with paypal, there is recourse if the item is received is different than described. Most of the items I sell are listed as not returnable, however in a few cases of buyers remorse, I have canceled the sale before it shipped and not left bad feedback. I have said something like cancelled by mutual agreement on the feedback. I have only a few times left neutral feedback, don't recall ever having to leave negative feedback.

That said, I do leave feedback, and generally I receive feedback, however I don't ask for it and I know some buyers don't leave it. Etsy also has a feedback system, many there also don't leave feedback. I think it should be a personal choice. I guess on etsy I appreciate the feedback more because they are my designs and hand work, so feedback there is more helpful overall in helping potential buyers know what to expect.

Ebay doesn't really care about the individual buyers or sellers no matter what they say. They aren't going to make the situation better for either, in my estimation. It is unfortunate so many categories are full of outright fraud, especially the pearl stuff. I could spend all day reporting them and not make a dent. Lots of issues with designer leather goods, too.

Snufflepig, I'm glad you got some resolution on the Trifari pearls. Doubt I've added anything new to this useful discussion, but thank you for bringing it up.

 

[snufflepig]

After reading all this thoughtful input (thank you all!!) I've come to the conclusion that honesty is the best policy, and that kindness never hurts... my usual approach. If I wind up on some block lists for giving honest feedback, so be it... if more people did leave really honest feedback, the whole system wouldn't be such a sham, and those who block me just won't get my money. I sent a message to the earring/ring seller letting them know that their packaging could use a bit more bubble wrap, they said they would see to it in future. I had to laugh because one of my other rings arrived today, it was sent from China in a condiment container and got here in perfect condition... hey, it worked! I'm a fan of creative innovation!

 

[Sea Urchin]

I think I'll quit leaving feedback completely on eBay. It has become so weird that it has no relation to what I consider the definition or purpose of "feedback" to be. The seller feedback ratings seem pretty well useless as far as telling anything about how a seller actually does business, rather than how well they can cover their tracks.

What I consider "feedback"- It is kind of like when you were in school and received a grade. It is the buyer's perception of how well the seller did, on a number of aspects, accuracy of description, quality of merchandise, quickness of delivery, and anything else the buyer notes. It can sometimes be added to by the buyer, say, to note that the seller did (or did not) correct the problem, or whatever. It is completely out of the seller's control. The seller is not consulted first nor given an opportunity to re-write history when called out. Buyer feedback means "buyer" feedback, period, not "heavily seller influenced" feedback.

Now? What comes to mind are just a bunch of those annoying internet acronyms. Omg, ROFL, WTH?

Compare that with "feedback" on Amazon, Overstock, wherever. There, it is anonymous and out of the seller's hands completely. If they did get unfair feedback, it will be in there among all the rest and people will be able to see that it was only one disgruntled customer out of 100, or whatever. It won't "ruin" them and they can't block buyers for it. At the same time, if they pull the same tricks over and over again, like try to buy off tattling sellers who are savvy enough to know that their antique whatevers are actually replicas, for example, that will show up as well. As it is now, ebay seller rating much under 99.5% looks pretty bad. Really?! With anything else, that would be a nearly perfect score. "Four out of five stars" is pretty darn good. EBay's feedback system is such a mess.

Ebay feedback, in my opinion, is NOT feedback at all. You are expected to practically get the seller's permission to leave it, and play elaborate games with "saying it was good when it wasn't, but then marking down the stars" and learn other strange codes and detective methods, rather than simply report your straight opinion of how your transaction went. It means nothing. Why even have it?

 

[Pearl Dreams]

It's messed up, no question, but it's still more information than nothing at all.

If eBay would let the feedback speak for itself and not use the seller's ratings against them (suspending or limiting their selling privileges, holding their PayPal payments for 21 days, ranking them lower in the order of search results, raising their seller fees and other things) I think the feedback would be a lot more useful. As it is, sellers have so much to lose from vindictive and passive-aggressive buyers. Some buyers even leave negatives if the seller doesn't post feedback first.

I understand why eBay removed the ability of sellers to leave non-positive feedback for buyers, but some buyer behavior is outrageous and deserves to be called out.

JMO

 

[Ramona]

Once I started selling a couple of items on Ebay, I realized how hard it is to be a seller. I think once all transactions are taxed, it will become even less attractive for sellers. I liked Ebay a lot better a couple of years back. But it is still a place to buy items I could no afford at regular prices. And it allows you to sell to a huge audience. Selling is just hard work given the time one has to put in per listing and the uncertainties regarding Ebay's treatment and potential iffy buyers.

 

[Anne21]

I'm not sure if you can purchase delivery confirmation at the post office counter any more unless you insure; the last time I insured a package at the P.O. I looked in vain for the DC form and was told it doesn't exist any more-- the insurance number is now the tracking number. But if one doesn't insure the package I'm not sure if one can get DC for it.

I have had to ask for the delivery confirmation form at my post office. For some reason it's not out there with the others. I've started collecting a few extras so I can go ahead and fill them out without having to get the form at the post office and fill it out there. I think last time I did it the cost was about $1.25. Maybe not all post offices keep the forms, or not all employees know about them. Do you have another post office you can check?

 

[Pearl Dreams]

Thanks Annie. That was written a few months ago and I didn't think to go back and update it.

Delivery Confirmation for a first class package is 90 cents when purchased at the post office, or free with insurance or if the package is addressed to on official Returns department, as I learned wen I did a return last week to Artbeads' return dept. It may be a lower price when postage is purchased online.