New to CFWP Business with Lots of Questions!

[Zeide Erskine]

Hi Richard,

I don't quite think it is a proper literature reference for a claim to refer to something you wrote yourself.

Anyhow, the red jade shown on the Mason Kay color chart is definitely red enough and the yellow jade yellow enough and the lavender jade can definitely be blue enough to qualify as red, yellow and blue all three of these colors you said before did not exist. The so-called Olmec jadeite from Guatemala is also definitely blue, albeit not bright turquoise blue. Although I have some bright turquoise blue stones that were given to me as examples of blue jade and they look like bright blue jade at first glance, they are definitely gem chrysocolla. See I am agreeing with you on something.

Zeide

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Zeide,

You are muddying the waters! Guatamalan jadeite is indeed a dull shade of gray-blue to blue-gray. There is quite a bit of it available. However, I believe the discussion was about the finest colors of Burmese jadeite, the kingfisher and the Chinese, at least that was the subject of my post.

If you have references, state them. If you have examples, site them. ........ what they tell me is that you are unwilling or unable to entertain the possiblity that you might be wrong about something.

 

[Zeide Erskine]

Hi Richard,

I do not know how you get that impression. I said in about every post I wrote on the subject of jade that I have not yet seen "bright blue jade" that was not in fact gem chrysocolla. Yet, the Chinese terms for top grade jade, i.e. stone of heaven and kingfisher jade, clearly suggest this type of blue. After all, the Chinese term "stone of heaven" is rooted in the Chinese meaning of the word and "heaven" there means just sky and has nothing to do with sitting next to a deity whilst the playing the harp or something.

What I am trying to get at is that the Chinese term may have been coined before there was something like hard-and-fast chemical definitions of gemstones and indeed they considered gem chrysocolla the highest grade of jade. Besides that, I would not categorically state that there is no such thing as certain colors of jade. Just like I would not rule out that someday somebody may find blue garnet.

Zeide

 

[Caitlin]

Hi all
Even though it is out of my realm of interest, I have been following this discussion and learning a tad about jade, which I always considered a baffling subject.

I do not see a difference of opinion between Richard and Zeide as making one of them "wrong". Nor does Zeide contradicting Richard make him less of an expert or less right.

What I have noticed is that Zeide rarely closes doors. Once I said there was no such thing as natural black FW pearls. What I really should have said is they aren't commercially available, because Zeide came along and has been pointing out ever since that there are a variety of FW pearls that can produce black--and should.They are rare, but there are actually some who are cultivating them and I bet there will soon be more, because there is a demand.

What I learned is that someone who doeasn't believe in natural black FW pearls is unlikely to find them.

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Zeide,

You are correct and I have a couple of blue garnets. I think the problem here is the clash of cultures.

"Through much of history, the Chinese seem to have taken a subjective approach to categorising precious objects, relying on the use of poetic names to suggest specifi qualities, rather than the objective classifications sought in western taxonomy. Jadeite is no exception. for example, its Chinese name feicui is descriptive in this way, recalling the brilliance of the iridescent feathers of the Kingfisher...jadeite never presents the exact shades of turquoise and orange which characterize this bird's plumage." (emphasis mine.

Essay, Christies Magnificent Jewellery Hong Kong, Monday, 30 October, 1995.

This reference is sited by Hughes in his online essay. The essay is excellent except the author has difficulties when he tries to use western scientific terminlogy, confusing tone with saturation for one thing and Hughes appears to follow his lead uncritically.

 

[Caitlin]

I think I am getting a hint about how much leeway is needed when interpreting Chinese terminology. If they compare green jade to heaven sky color- no wonder you can't get what you order!

 

[jerin]

Blue Jadite - green jadeite - nephrite - stone of heaven

Blue Jadite - green jadeite - nephrite - stone of heaven

Hi, experts!

I totally agree with Caitlin on this subject. Don?t let us fight (not even with words) about the different colours and interpretations but go on with other interesting articles, threads or posts on all these fascinating subjects, especially pearls of all kinds (if I may tell my preferences).

Jerin

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Last post on the jade issue:

The Ko Ku Yao Lun (Essential of Chinese Connoisseurship) was written in the 13-14th Century. In it jade is discussed including the so-called blue and red. The blue jade (light blue with a yellowish secondary hue) is agate. The red jade is described as: The color of a "cox comb" which would be distinctly orangy or perhaps orange. 'Blood red" is a term also used in this manuscript to descrribe stains. I believe in reference to iron stains, also distinctly orange.

Kindly bare in mind that in Chna at this period all true jade was nephrite. I expect the source of confusion is between the two varieties of jade which are in fact not varieties at all but distinctly different materials.

 

[Caitlin]

Thanks for a thread where I learned much more about the confusion surrounding jade. This is good because I have alway been so confused about jade- what is jade, what isn't. I see there is jade- and there are other stones called jade- at times.

So jade is an actual stone and it is also a metaphor.....

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Jadeite and nephrite and also a snare and a delusion.

 

[Zeide Erskine]

Hi Richard,

And as an archaeologist I may also add that there is furthermore the concept of cultural and societal jade that refers to stone carvings made from rocks other than jade that were considered jade in a certain cultural and societal context.

Zeide