My new Sea of Cortez Pendant from UK arrived today!

[mausketeer]

I have had this thought before, that this forum is a great place to note, or start to, create provenance for any pearl piece. Forums are new to Provenance, having only been invented since the internet, but a photo on a thread here, certainly establishes a point in time that would ID the pearl. I am rushed because i have to leave, but I'd be curious about others' thoughts on this subject

Great idea! (and lovely piece too!) I have thought of something along these lines that I wanted to mention, this would be a good time to do so. I wondered if when someone posts a question or a statement about a piece and there is a photo, if they could just post the photo itself, rather than a link to the item? I have gone through many older threads on here where the link is no longer valid. If it's a really unique or special piece it's kind of a drag to not be able to see what people are commenting on, you know? I really see this site as an educational tool, it would be great if we had access to everything, even if it's an older post (it would probably still be pertinent).

Here I go being long-winded again! Sorry!!!

- Jodie -

 

[Adeline Leigh]

Jeweljunke, so you grabbed those; I mourned a little when the listing ended Lucky you...

 

[Caitlin]

Great idea! (and lovely piece too!) I have thought of something along these lines that I wanted to mention, this would be a good time to do so. I wondered if when someone posts a question or a statement about a piece and there is a photo, if they could just post the photo itself, rather than a link to the item? I have gone through many older threads on here where the link is no longer valid. If it's a really unique or special piece it's kind of a drag to not be able to see what people are commenting on, you know? I really see this site as an educational tool, it would be great if we had access to everything, even if it's an older post (it would probably still be pertinent).

Here I go being long-winded again! Sorry!!!

- Jodie -

I am the worst long winded offender...... so what? Anyway, I agree about photos instead of link. When I remember, I go grab them. If we include a link, a photo on an educational site is a fair use It is not considered a copyright infringement, as stealing the picture to use it to sell pearls, is.

We are a really important record that remains accessible until they outgrow the internet, which I can't foresee. When those big pearls come up for auction, and they put out photos, grab them! They too, will disappear, and an educational opportunity is lost forever....... sad face.

Better yet, don't take my word, google it. As netizens, this is useful info!

Don't be afraid to post photos of pearl-related stuff here! Just link the photos to their sources.

 

[mausketeer]

Good to know Caitlin! And once again, I have to say thank-you to yourself and all the other experts who put your time and years of knowledge and experience into this website. I know real world experience can't replace "web-based" but I HAVE learned so much from you and everyone else on here just from reading all your posts (and looking at the photos. Really, detailed photos can't be beat......)

- Jodie -

 

[Jeweljunke]

Good to know Caitlin! And once again, I have to say thank-you to yourself and all the other experts who put your time and years of knowledge and experience into this website. I know real world experience can't replace "web-based" but I HAVE learned so much from you and everyone else on here just from reading all your posts (and looking at the photos. Really, detailed photos can't be beat......)

- Jodie -

I agree and add my thanks. I am starting to learn so much.

 

[Caitlin]

We need those photos!!!!!

 

[Jeweljunke]

I was thinking about the Provenance concept, which seems like a terrific idea to document the history of a jewelry piece. I went to the website and I was able to copy the content of Sue's website page for this pendant, but not the photos that go with it, so I am copying it here for future reference... (I deleted the remainder of this post in an abundance of caution.)

 

[pearlescence]

Hi
While I applaud your interest in keeping a record of your purchase, If I were Sue I would not be happy that you simply copied over her website description, without her permission. If someone did that with any entry from my website I would be talking to admin
It is a breach of her copyright if nothing else.
I'll also point out that while everyone seems to have assumed the original source of the pendant, no-one has confirmed that. It is a best guess, at best.

 

[Adeline Leigh]

Hmmm, Wendy you have raised an interesting point. Wonder if the other senior members or admin could best advise us on the protocol regarding the posting of others' pictures off their blog, website, ebay shop etc. on this forum.

Intellectual property rules and regulations differ from country to country, I can only speak of Australia's and Singapore's, but even in academia, our standard operating procedure with respect to printed text (books, online articles, accompanying images and visuals) is to duly cite and acknowledge, ackowledge, acknowledge! We can circumvent seeking the author's permission as long as the work is not being passed of as our own. In cases where the original author has stated explicitly that his permission must be sought in the reproduction of his work in any shape, form or mode, then would we initiate a formal request.

The other issue I'm bringing up is probably a little grey considering the intent of PG. If the forum boards were set up to educate (not-for-profit), then under that premise, a person would be entitled to copy wholesale (citing and acknowledging, of course) a maximum of 10% of the resource he is after, and as long as monetary gain is not in the picture, that person would not be running afoul of the law. Though, I conceed, it is in bad form and, in spirit, a tad rude as well.

A most pertinent post, in this day and age of the internet and the proliferation of online sharing communities. Would love to hear from others with insight into IP laws from the other regions. Hope we can seek some clarity here. Thanks

 

[Jeweljunke]

...I suggest you start a folder for this piece, with everything from the ad on sueki's site, to a copy of this thread. It is a true classic collector piece that started in a pteria sterna shell on Douglas et al's farm, then went to Carolyn, then she sold it to someone, then sueki resold it to you. that is a perfect provenance and that piece deserves one!

I have had this thought before, that this forum is a great place to note, or start to, create provenance for any pearl piece. Forums are new to Provenance, having only been invented since the internet, but a photo on a thread here, certainly establishes a point in time that would ID the pearl. I am rushed because i have to leave, but I'd be curious about others' thoughts on this subject

Hi Pearlecence: In an effort to "fit in" on this wonderful and informative site, I was attempting to take the advise of others in documenting my purchase. I happen to work in a law office, so I do take your point. I am very willing to delete the post. I do keep a record of my purchases on my own computer at home along with photos and receipts, so it would not be a loss to me to delete this post at all. In fact, I am going to revise it right now. It may be that I misunderstood the advice given. And after all, I am a newbie here. Oh, and I never did say it was from Caroline, just that it reminded me of her work.

 

[Caitlin]

Hi!
This is exactly the right discussion for this thread. While Adeline is correct about fair use, their is no need
d to post sueki's page here- though a link might be nice, its is unnecessary. But, It is a great idea to keep a copy of that page in your folder as it has its own provenance, so to speak.

Adeline is correct. Thank you for the time it took to expound that, A! As an educational site, we have a very strong fair use ability and can copy photos and stuff for purposes of review, discussion, and about anything non-commercial, including Sueki's webpage- for legitimate reason. However, I don't see the need for anyone's provenance folder to be up on Pearl-Guide, Copies of Pearl-Guide posts and links should go in the folder on the owner's computer, if not printed out, as well.

I was just thinking putting up a photo and even a neck shot online at a datable time adds good material to any special pearl's provenance. Or to one's unique creation. It is in the thread that I thought it was from Carloyn Ehret, but your confirmation is good and makes it official that it is C's piece.

 

[Jeweljunke]

Dear Caitlin: Yikes! Boy did I misunderstand. You are kind to so gently tell me what you meant. Although I have never done it, I will try a neck shot. Hopefully I will not scare anyone with a photo of this old neck. But, hey, it is Halloween soon.

 

[Caitlin]

I was making a vague thought into words. That piece triggered me to say something I have thought for years. That a record of a piece here with photos and description, just what people already do, can be part of a good provenance. I think when some of us die, there will be a lot of pearls lying around. If each piece had its own folder, ....well, you get my drift.

 

[Caitlin]

There are two main conventions regulating copyright, which are reduced into national law. Most of the world has one system, and the USA has another. Educational purposes is indeed an exemption, but only fair use. The UK has the copyright designs and patents act, the study of which formed a module of my law degree study but I remember little of it now beyond the bare bones. And of course in America you undoubtedly do things differently anyway.
While we could argue back and forth about the issue on the forum, I do think that the posting of the listing as a cut and paste was not educational - the details had already been given. The information wasn't secret, obviously, as it was on a website, but at the same time it seems to me that if nothing else it is simply not 'on' to post thusly and for the forum to adopt such a position would cause all sorts of problems. Linking to an item listing is a different matter of course.
Suffice it to say that I would be unhappy to see any of my listings simply cut and pasted into the forum

I already c&p'd two of your pieces, didn't I? I linked to them, so it actually makes them available to everyone who reads this forum to click through, as well as to your own customers. That is called a free plug and most sellers do not mind a free plug.

Just think of how many people will check out Carolyn from reading this thread. (Luv ya Carolyn!)

What if I post a photo from your website of one of your complicated necklaces with all the different pearls? With the link, of course. I really like the purple ones. Then someone copies it and sells it wholesale? Not the photo, the necklace? That's the breech-though it is still not a crime. I like this photo. And the necklace. I love the dyed pearls and this necklace is a great member of a daily working wardrobe.

I think it is awkward and unecessary to post a whole webpage, even for informative or educational purposes. I wish I had seen it before Jewelj took it down though! What a lol! When even the crass commercial use of other's photos is hard to follow down and punish, I doubt any ambulance chaser would take on a case against p-g for putting up photos! Photos for discussion or review or other such purposes are fair use. Note that period at the end of the sentence.

For instance, we have a photo of a painting of mrs. Dodge wearing the dodge pearls. It was put up as part of the news that the necklace she is wearing in the photo is up for sale. All the publicity photos are now gone, but our copy of it is there for anyone who wants to see those famous pearls, anytime. I actually wrote and asked permission to use the photo, but found out later, I didn't need to do that. A link was sufficient.

 

[Caitlin]

I decided to put up a pic of one of Wendy's pieces. It is even more fashionable now, than when she first sold it! And i love the photo! the colors in the shell.... great eye, Wendy.

But here is the photo of some fab natural pearls! Viewing them is educational on a dozen levels, both for themselves and for the context in which they were worn, and all those implications. An absolute classic that is well-recorded, here.. pearls!!! Yea!!!

That looks like a very peach pearl on the hand in the peach painting. We do not have enough photos of paintings of pearls, either!

 

[Adeline Leigh]

Thanks for the clarity, Caitlin. I have no paintings to contribute but perhaps a link (and pics) to some fabbo pearls in the New York Mag under the Style Forum... Thanks to you and Jodie, the Urban Dictionary is now a go-to for me online.