pearlescence
purveyor of pearls UK/EU
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2007
- Messages
- 4,107
Yes, cos the price they offer (melt price) will be lower for 10ct than for 14ct
Chipped Pearls
- Thread starter Camelotshadow
- Start date
JerseyPearl
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2014
- Messages
- 5,884
That's horrible!
Camelotshadow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 361
I have 2 sets of acid but I think my acids should be right.
That is surely possible the unscrupulous gold buyers would want to get 14K for 10 K price.
Most likley 14K could fail 14K acid as it could be 13.5 K
I'm not an expert on acid or scratch tests but color of the scratch & feel with experience can help.
They say acid tests alone are not the best thing as these days some metals can pass them.
Gold buyers can & have been cheated too by gold plated stainless or whatever & would have to cut into a piece at various locations as sometimes just the clasp is gold & the rest faked & not all metals are magnetic...
China is really faking coins these days with tunsten cores that will duplicate same wieght so they have to xray them now to be sure.
Mankind has always tried to find a way to cheat....
That is surely possible the unscrupulous gold buyers would want to get 14K for 10 K price.
Most likley 14K could fail 14K acid as it could be 13.5 K
I'm not an expert on acid or scratch tests but color of the scratch & feel with experience can help.
They say acid tests alone are not the best thing as these days some metals can pass them.
Gold buyers can & have been cheated too by gold plated stainless or whatever & would have to cut into a piece at various locations as sometimes just the clasp is gold & the rest faked & not all metals are magnetic...
China is really faking coins these days with tunsten cores that will duplicate same wieght so they have to xray them now to be sure.
Mankind has always tried to find a way to cheat....
In your third post with photos (7/1 at 8:36pm is appearing for me, the one where you show more than just the damage, but both earrings), the 4th & 5th photos show a squiggle in the pearl on the left. What is that? Is that common?
I'm not asking in a rhetorical kind of way. I'm trying to learn, as I don't think I've ever seen that in pearl photos or in the few pearls I have.
I'm not asking in a rhetorical kind of way. I'm trying to learn, as I don't think I've ever seen that in pearl photos or in the few pearls I have.
pearlescence
purveyor of pearls UK/EU
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2007
- Messages
- 4,107
Just for information, here is a touchstone
At an assay office an assayer has a set of needles with wire of metals of known quality. These are touched - that is, wiped across the stone (often slate) and leaves a streak. The metal to be tested is wiped next to it and if there is a match that is the proof. It is a very old method but is still the one used on most items to be assayed and hallmarked in the UK. The assay office also has the most advanced laser and other equipment for difficult cases but the touchstone works most times and is quick and non destructive.
In this second photo you can see the needles and samples clearly
While I view it as an expensive pain when I send stuff off for assay and marking, clearly the system has its merits in avoiding these situations and uncertainty
(Hallmarking is compulsory for all precious metals sold in the UK over certain weights. That includes imported items)
At an assay office an assayer has a set of needles with wire of metals of known quality. These are touched - that is, wiped across the stone (often slate) and leaves a streak. The metal to be tested is wiped next to it and if there is a match that is the proof. It is a very old method but is still the one used on most items to be assayed and hallmarked in the UK. The assay office also has the most advanced laser and other equipment for difficult cases but the touchstone works most times and is quick and non destructive.
In this second photo you can see the needles and samples clearly
While I view it as an expensive pain when I send stuff off for assay and marking, clearly the system has its merits in avoiding these situations and uncertainty
(Hallmarking is compulsory for all precious metals sold in the UK over certain weights. That includes imported items)
Pearl Dreams
Pearl Enthusiast
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2007
- Messages
- 9,714
That was so interesting, Wendy!
Camelotshadow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 361
That was interesting & seems I missed a page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone_(assaying_tool)
They scratch the metal on a stone or black tile...it could be slate..I like to even use a natural stone for honing knives...
Plat will scratch & test white but white gold will look bronzy on a scratch & with acid.
You wipe the metal scratch off with acid & it cleans the slate.
There are better stones but the acids come & most stones are just some form of black tile/
Question is marking platinum & gold has been mandatory for a long time so why are there unmarled platinum & gold pieces? I thought maybe some jewelers didnt mark handmade pieces but they should have.
Earrings are a bit harder as were usually onlymarked on the screw or backing as somtimes there was little roomon the earring & posts used to not be marked,
I have only seen the screw threads go all the way down the post in really old 1920s or 30's earrings.
Even one jeweler caught that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone_(assaying_tool)
They scratch the metal on a stone or black tile...it could be slate..I like to even use a natural stone for honing knives...
Plat will scratch & test white but white gold will look bronzy on a scratch & with acid.
You wipe the metal scratch off with acid & it cleans the slate.
There are better stones but the acids come & most stones are just some form of black tile/
Question is marking platinum & gold has been mandatory for a long time so why are there unmarled platinum & gold pieces? I thought maybe some jewelers didnt mark handmade pieces but they should have.
Earrings are a bit harder as were usually onlymarked on the screw or backing as somtimes there was little roomon the earring & posts used to not be marked,
I have only seen the screw threads go all the way down the post in really old 1920s or 30's earrings.
Even one jeweler caught that.
Last edited:
Camelotshadow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 361
We don't know what that wavy flat ring is. You don;t always see it like that & sometimes its very hard to see but it appears that the nacre is a bit different texture. Hard to say what would cause it as if it sat in water or some acid I would think the entire top would appear that way Its wavy & irregular ring that goes around the top of the pearl/ Too bad as the ringed one is the one that is not chipped...more bad luck...
They are not bad pearls. They change colors though depending on the light. Outside they really look gold..inside yellowish or cream/
There is a very faint green overtone...I like a mystery & I wore them yesterday. You can't see the chip esp if you position it on the bottom when on the ear.
Attachments
Last edited:
pearlescence
purveyor of pearls UK/EU
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2007
- Messages
- 4,107
Yes. Once you have filled it up you just abrade it off and are good to go all over again (and probably the slurry from the assay office gets recycled (although it doesn't seem to keep the costs down much!)
The assay office uses slate slabs - as per the photo
Assay has be required by law in the UK since 1370 (that is not a typo. C14)when the Goldsmiths' Guild was given the job of making sure that things came up to proof, then a maker could make his mark - literally - on the item. Items below a set weight do not have to be hallmarked . so a stud earring in gold or platinum is below the min weight while a ring would have to be unless very thin. For silver, the min weight is a lot more so most rings escape.
Every single item is assayed, or a representative sample if in a batch of identical manufactured pieces.
It's still a very special memory, standing in Goldsmiths'Hall in London looking at the wallboards with the names of all the guild masters from 1350 and thinking..the processes we use are still pretty much the same. we could probably sit side by side and share tools - and add an ancient Eqyptian and they'd be jealous of modern torches but pretty much everything else would be understood.
The assay office uses slate slabs - as per the photo
Assay has be required by law in the UK since 1370 (that is not a typo. C14)when the Goldsmiths' Guild was given the job of making sure that things came up to proof, then a maker could make his mark - literally - on the item. Items below a set weight do not have to be hallmarked . so a stud earring in gold or platinum is below the min weight while a ring would have to be unless very thin. For silver, the min weight is a lot more so most rings escape.
Every single item is assayed, or a representative sample if in a batch of identical manufactured pieces.
It's still a very special memory, standing in Goldsmiths'Hall in London looking at the wallboards with the names of all the guild masters from 1350 and thinking..the processes we use are still pretty much the same. we could probably sit side by side and share tools - and add an ancient Eqyptian and they'd be jealous of modern torches but pretty much everything else would be understood.
Camelotshadow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 361
Thanks! England goes back a bit further than America....LOL
I've always been fascinated by history & jewelry is the most interesting. I think some of the hallmarks omakers marks were lost in a fire in the 1600's? Interesting on the weight limit. Earrings in general esp stud are lighter but I have a pair of plat/10 irrid earrings that weigh in over 7 grams. Some rings are light settings at 2 grams.
My earring screws are already .6 grams so I figure the entire mounting is at least double that so close to 2 grams.
Do you know silver????
What about the loth???? I brought a old ladle to a coin dealer once & he never heard of a loth. I think its old german silver...
I'ts a 12 with a sun on top of it. & its huge & heavy!!! Think it has LCf or t with a crown on it?
https://www.rubylane.com/item/1283531-CAx20457/silver-12-Loth-750-standard-ladle
Guess its 750 silver & German from 1800's...
Looks like this & is 8 or 9 ounces...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Anitque-Ger...met-Shaped-Bowl-Punch-Soup-Ladle/332257119401
Guess I'm not rich but it was a nice Salvation find for a few $'s////
I've always been fascinated by history & jewelry is the most interesting. I think some of the hallmarks omakers marks were lost in a fire in the 1600's? Interesting on the weight limit. Earrings in general esp stud are lighter but I have a pair of plat/10 irrid earrings that weigh in over 7 grams. Some rings are light settings at 2 grams.
My earring screws are already .6 grams so I figure the entire mounting is at least double that so close to 2 grams.
Do you know silver????
What about the loth???? I brought a old ladle to a coin dealer once & he never heard of a loth. I think its old german silver...
I'ts a 12 with a sun on top of it. & its huge & heavy!!! Think it has LCf or t with a crown on it?
https://www.rubylane.com/item/1283531-CAx20457/silver-12-Loth-750-standard-ladle
Guess its 750 silver & German from 1800's...
Looks like this & is 8 or 9 ounces...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Anitque-Ger...met-Shaped-Bowl-Punch-Soup-Ladle/332257119401
Guess I'm not rich but it was a nice Salvation find for a few $'s////
Last edited:
JerseyPearl
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2014
- Messages
- 5,884
Interesting...
Sanippy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 1,768
This is way too complicated for me!
Camelotshadow - I echo the thoughts of others, please take care of yourself and maybe think about letting this go if it's causing you so much stress. It's just not worth it. Perhaps take this as a learning experience and move on.
Camelotshadow - I echo the thoughts of others, please take care of yourself and maybe think about letting this go if it's causing you so much stress. It's just not worth it. Perhaps take this as a learning experience and move on.
amti
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 26, 2014
- Messages
- 1,840
I wonder if the ring was hairspray or something that touched the pearl and was not removed immediately. It would make sense seeing how it is on the top of the pearl.
Pearlescense, that's really neat about the metal testing. I've never seen a photo or known about that. Do they scratch deeper now in case items are gold filled?
Camelot, my mom has a silver tea set from Germany that is 850, or some odd number that is lower than 925. That's a neat find! I love finding unusual and fun things and when they're cheap, it is even better! And regarding testing a 13.5k with 14k, it will still fade the lines but not as quickly. So, it is important to have some jewelry that meet the standards (have the 585 markings) for comparison. I may have missed your response, but did you test the earrings for platinum? And then 18k? I"ve never done a testing for plat and wondered how it differed from 18k since that jeweler said it was 18k.
Pearlescense, that's really neat about the metal testing. I've never seen a photo or known about that. Do they scratch deeper now in case items are gold filled?
Camelot, my mom has a silver tea set from Germany that is 850, or some odd number that is lower than 925. That's a neat find! I love finding unusual and fun things and when they're cheap, it is even better! And regarding testing a 13.5k with 14k, it will still fade the lines but not as quickly. So, it is important to have some jewelry that meet the standards (have the 585 markings) for comparison. I may have missed your response, but did you test the earrings for platinum? And then 18k? I"ve never done a testing for plat and wondered how it differed from 18k since that jeweler said it was 18k.
Camelotshadow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 361
Most German silver is 800...Any old silver is nice. Its still not that expensive per oz but is adds up esp if one spoon is 3 oz thats going to cost
least $100 per spoon with labor or even $50 metal value...
They just don;t make 8 or 9 oz silver ladles anymore...Guess if I shined it up I could use it for soup & stews...
I have one Tiffany Provence (Pattern intro same year as my birth 1960 from old french simple yet luxurious... my pattern should I ever hit the lotto...LOL) 90 g tablespoon (apprx $100)that I used to use for hagen daz...my luxury,,,made even more luxurious. Eating with a fine smooth thick heavy ornate silver spoon is a different mouthfeel than stainless if only in the mind I don;t know...
If I get some extra $ I should buy a fork too...hehehehe
I knew about loth thru research after I got the ladle. I had never heard of loth or silver marks such as 12 & 13 & had done research into old silver. I guessits not very common & this coin dealer had never come across it so that was his loss. That was about 10 years ago & glad I never sold it for scrap.
I did not re test it yet. Its been tested least 3 time & the screw is worn a bit...18 k acide won't affect platinum either so best to save tests for plat acid as I don't want to scratch any more plat as I have too.
It tested 18K by the electronic metal tester but he said he had a low battery & that affects it...
I don't want 18K or gold but its good to think its at least that & not some steel blend.
I think you can use plat acid to check white gold but its more of a see how long it stays id so its not that accurate unless you scratch a known white gold. White gold will generally bronxe with the acid as the acid eats the white metals such as nickel, silver or whatever they alloyed it with.
I thought it was the other way around...13.5 k will stay then fade faster than 14K which should stay.
least $100 per spoon with labor or even $50 metal value...
They just don;t make 8 or 9 oz silver ladles anymore...Guess if I shined it up I could use it for soup & stews...
I have one Tiffany Provence (Pattern intro same year as my birth 1960 from old french simple yet luxurious... my pattern should I ever hit the lotto...LOL) 90 g tablespoon (apprx $100)that I used to use for hagen daz...my luxury,,,made even more luxurious. Eating with a fine smooth thick heavy ornate silver spoon is a different mouthfeel than stainless if only in the mind I don;t know...
If I get some extra $ I should buy a fork too...hehehehe
I knew about loth thru research after I got the ladle. I had never heard of loth or silver marks such as 12 & 13 & had done research into old silver. I guessits not very common & this coin dealer had never come across it so that was his loss. That was about 10 years ago & glad I never sold it for scrap.
I did not re test it yet. Its been tested least 3 time & the screw is worn a bit...18 k acide won't affect platinum either so best to save tests for plat acid as I don't want to scratch any more plat as I have too.
It tested 18K by the electronic metal tester but he said he had a low battery & that affects it...
I don't want 18K or gold but its good to think its at least that & not some steel blend.
I think you can use plat acid to check white gold but its more of a see how long it stays id so its not that accurate unless you scratch a known white gold. White gold will generally bronxe with the acid as the acid eats the white metals such as nickel, silver or whatever they alloyed it with.
I thought it was the other way around...13.5 k will stay then fade faster than 14K which should stay.
Last edited:
Camelotshadow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 361
OOOOhhh now I get it...I was not even thinking about 10K. Guess its good to get a set of test needles to compare as I don;t want to keep scratching my good plat...
I did not test it again yet. sort of just trying to regroup...I did test it twice already. Nor sure why it looked like it failed the 2nd test...
It did though as I took pictures....That is really ... Still driving myself crazy is not good either...I looked at it under 20X mag. Really looks like the scores on the side of the screw were handmade. Why would someone hand finish fake platinum?> I should order the test tube...ack graduated cylinder. I found a 5ml class A for $9 shipped so its worth it to try to do a SG test.
Played a bit more...gosh whatever it is is slowly being worn away...
Thinking it could be palladium too. Seems to hold a short while w plat acid then spreads & fades. Maybe tiny bit of line remains.. It holds better to 18K & does not seem to bronze though so hope its not that.
Palladium also hold a short while to plat acid but disappears...18 K seems to turn palladium into a oily sludge. Not sure how to deal with palladium but have 2 mountings from stuller.
This guy thought he had plat, as it resisted plat & 18K acids/ Turns put it was 58 %cobalt, 35% nickel with a 7 % copper. It seems it might be a bit harder than plat.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?91,1906128
This stinks...well he said he smells metals....sort of smells like my gold...oh no,,,my plat irid smells sweet...
Yikes I think I can smell a difference....My plat 950 smells more like it...seems irid gives it a different smell...hmmmm or I need sleep & thi is driving me mad!!!
I did not test it again yet. sort of just trying to regroup...I did test it twice already. Nor sure why it looked like it failed the 2nd test...
It did though as I took pictures....That is really ... Still driving myself crazy is not good either...I looked at it under 20X mag. Really looks like the scores on the side of the screw were handmade. Why would someone hand finish fake platinum?> I should order the test tube...ack graduated cylinder. I found a 5ml class A for $9 shipped so its worth it to try to do a SG test.
Played a bit more...gosh whatever it is is slowly being worn away...
Thinking it could be palladium too. Seems to hold a short while w plat acid then spreads & fades. Maybe tiny bit of line remains.. It holds better to 18K & does not seem to bronze though so hope its not that.
Palladium also hold a short while to plat acid but disappears...18 K seems to turn palladium into a oily sludge. Not sure how to deal with palladium but have 2 mountings from stuller.
This guy thought he had plat, as it resisted plat & 18K acids/ Turns put it was 58 %cobalt, 35% nickel with a 7 % copper. It seems it might be a bit harder than plat.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?91,1906128
This stinks...well he said he smells metals....sort of smells like my gold...oh no,,,my plat irid smells sweet...
Yikes I think I can smell a difference....My plat 950 smells more like it...seems irid gives it a different smell...hmmmm or I need sleep & thi is driving me mad!!!
Last edited:
Camelotshadow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 361
Trying to work backward to see if a 5ml tube that measures with .1ml lines will be accurate enough for a .6g sample of plat.
Looks like it might not be.
If I use the formula knowing plat has SG of 21.45 then 21.45 = the min mass dev by .1ml. I get about 2 grams being displces by about .1ml so anything smaller would just be a fraction of a line on the tube.
I'd need a 1ml tube & think 5 ml is the smallest///Gosh don;t want to waste time & $10 in vain but if I coudl get the SG or close to it I could narrow it down as 18 while gold is barely 15 SG while plat in over 21...
Looks like it might not be.
If I use the formula knowing plat has SG of 21.45 then 21.45 = the min mass dev by .1ml. I get about 2 grams being displces by about .1ml so anything smaller would just be a fraction of a line on the tube.
I'd need a 1ml tube & think 5 ml is the smallest///Gosh don;t want to waste time & $10 in vain but if I coudl get the SG or close to it I could narrow it down as 18 while gold is barely 15 SG while plat in over 21...
Camelotshadow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 361
Just did a SG test with a balance that measures to .001g.
Funny the plat sample is coming in at 12 SG which is the SG of palladium!!! or 10K white gold but its passing 18K on acid & electronic tester which pd would but 10K would not...
PD & PT are now just about $30 gram each no no real value difference but plat in not palladium!
Pd is supposed to turn burnt orange with 18K acid & its not....
I have noticed a strange milkiness.
SG of 12 could also be approx 12 K gold.
One test is not really enough to identify a metal but it can eliminate a potential metal.
Even if this earring was under 900 plat any platinum in it would hold up to the acid so that is not a potential reason.
I wonder if they do mix silver with cobalt or other metals? They could also react similarly to acids.
Torch test to red hot will only leave platinum to cool back to original color but could destroy or discolor other metals. Dont have a torch & would not be comfortable with that test on jewelry even if it was plat.
Platinum is so much a superior metal. It resists scratching & when it is deformed it morphs the metal so it does not actually lose metal but just redestributes it on the surface. It also can survive a hi temp fire better than gold or palladium.
I guess if we have a fire as long as we are not injured we should be thankful but it would also be nice if jewelry were spared.
I get a black residue sometimes when wiping certain acids off the stone. Something in it is doing this.
Could have a silver content as never seen that with gold but some white gold is alloyed with silver & can also be alloyed with palladium. This would make the white gold less reactive to the acid.
Could be 18K alloyed with palladium.
Alloys are harder to test & more refining of the acids is needed & its just beyond me as I am not going to be mixing special acids from scratch.
Palladium was used in the 20's 30's a bit & maybe more so in the 40's when plat was not available during the war but it is still pretty rare to find those pieces amongst the seas of gold.
I know this is not pearl related but for some of us who have pearls set in unknown metals we might like to know what it is just because we want to know & its not just a monetary thing.
I suppose this has prompted me to learn alot more about the metals & testing. Hopefully others have benefited from it too.
Funny the plat sample is coming in at 12 SG which is the SG of palladium!!! or 10K white gold but its passing 18K on acid & electronic tester which pd would but 10K would not...
PD & PT are now just about $30 gram each no no real value difference but plat in not palladium!
Pd is supposed to turn burnt orange with 18K acid & its not....
I have noticed a strange milkiness.
SG of 12 could also be approx 12 K gold.
One test is not really enough to identify a metal but it can eliminate a potential metal.
Even if this earring was under 900 plat any platinum in it would hold up to the acid so that is not a potential reason.
I wonder if they do mix silver with cobalt or other metals? They could also react similarly to acids.
Torch test to red hot will only leave platinum to cool back to original color but could destroy or discolor other metals. Dont have a torch & would not be comfortable with that test on jewelry even if it was plat.
Platinum is so much a superior metal. It resists scratching & when it is deformed it morphs the metal so it does not actually lose metal but just redestributes it on the surface. It also can survive a hi temp fire better than gold or palladium.
I guess if we have a fire as long as we are not injured we should be thankful but it would also be nice if jewelry were spared.
I get a black residue sometimes when wiping certain acids off the stone. Something in it is doing this.
Could have a silver content as never seen that with gold but some white gold is alloyed with silver & can also be alloyed with palladium. This would make the white gold less reactive to the acid.
Could be 18K alloyed with palladium.
Alloys are harder to test & more refining of the acids is needed & its just beyond me as I am not going to be mixing special acids from scratch.
Palladium was used in the 20's 30's a bit & maybe more so in the 40's when plat was not available during the war but it is still pretty rare to find those pieces amongst the seas of gold.
I know this is not pearl related but for some of us who have pearls set in unknown metals we might like to know what it is just because we want to know & its not just a monetary thing.
I suppose this has prompted me to learn alot more about the metals & testing. Hopefully others have benefited from it too.
Last edited:
Similar threads
