Betel Nut Juice

[jas932]

I have a colleague who claims that the magenta colors found in Tahitian pearls is from the pearls coming in contact with the juice from betel nuts.

This colleague has impressive credentials, but cannot substantiate this, other than to say that it has become an accepted practice so it is not disclosed.

Betel nut juice is not mentioned in any pearl books, articles I've read or gemological class work that I've studied.

Additionally, this colleague says that Tiffany's was sued at one time for selling "natural color" Tahitian pearls that, when tested, showed the presence of the nut.

Now, who's really the 'nut' here? Has anyone heard of this??

Thanks
Julie.

 

[Sueki]

Good Heavens !
Perhaps Josh will see this and comment...

 

[jshepherd]

Your colleague is the nut. One has to assume his credentials have nothing to do with pearls. There is no truth in that story whatsoever.

 

[jas932]

Thank you!

I have been searching for any little bit of info on this, and have found nothing. Nothing on the betel nut, nothing on the lawsuit.

Now I just have to keep him, and his stories!, away from my customers.

Thanks again
Julie.

 

[Slraep]

Now, who's really the 'nut' here? Has anyone heard of this??

Thanks
Julie.

Ummm...maybe your friend has been in contact with a nut called Zeide Erskine. She is an infamous pearl-crap scholar that makes up ANYTHING just to see if anyone will believe it.

Slraep

 

[laurenb]

Betel nut juice does, however, stain concrete if people chew the nuts and then spit on the street or sidewalk.

"Apparently so many people spit betelnut juice on the floor of the airport terminal that the authorities decided to paint the floor betelnut-red..." via Jerry Peek

You've already received 100% reliable "no" answers, but if you need to try to explain why to him or to a customer, there are several layman-friendly reasons it just wouldn't make sense.

The red in Tahitian pearls isn't flat like a dyed textile, it comes from the way multiple layers of nacre are reflecting light and often appears only at certain angles. You couldn't change just one of the colors with dye without affecting the others.

Furthermore, pigment is extracted from natural sources before it is used as a dye. If "traces of the nut" remained in/on a pearl, they'd wipe off or go horrendously rancid. Tiffany's doesn't do rancid jewelry. Whatever solvent was used to make the nacre receptive to the dye would surely break down fatty acid chains into unrecognizable components... This is dumb on so many levels!

I know there are others here who know more about the biochemistry of pearl colors and nacre architecture if you need to blind him with science.

 

[Slraep]

.

Furthermore, pigment is extracted from natural sources before it is used as a dye. If "traces of the nut" remained in/on a pearl, they'd wipe off or go horrendously rancid. Tiffany's doesn't do rancid jewelry.

What is that you say---that traces of dye derived from an organic substance would go rancid on the recipient of the dye? The pigment in the organic substance is usually a inorganic metallic salt, and once you wash off the organic part, the inorganic metallic salts don't rot. Am I understanding you wrong? Because artisanal wool, fabric and paper(lots of other things too), on a small scale, are still dyed with pigment coming from an organic substance. I'm knitting with some naturally dyed wool right now! It was dyed using dried mushroom powder(just happens to be purple). Anything rottable was long ago rinsed away.

I have probably just misunderstood what you are saying though.

Slraep

 

[laurenb]

What is that you say---that traces of dye derived from an organic substance would go rancid on the recipient of the dye? The pigment in the organic substance is usually a inorganic metallic salt, and once you wash off the organic part, the inorganic metallic salts don't rot. Am I understanding you wrong? Because artisanal wool, fabric and paper(lots of other things too), on a small scale, are still dyed with pigment coming from an organic substance. I'm knitting with some naturally dyed wool right now! It was dyed using dried mushroom powder(just happens to be purple). Anything rottable was long ago rinsed away.

I have probably just misunderstood what you are saying though.

Slraep

Yeah, I'm pointing out that the "traces of the nut" the OP's colleague mentioned would be long gone. Those inorganic metallic salts wouldn't scream "I'm a nut!" during mass spectrometry or whatever else one would use for such a test.

 

[Slraep]

Whatever solvent was used to make the nacre receptive to the dye would surely break down fatty acid chains into unrecognizable components...

There are solvents that do not break down conchiolin. At least not visibly. I left some pearls in natural turpentine for over six months and nothing happened to them. I left another batch in cedar oil and yet another in pure orange oil and nothing happened to those pearls either.

Even soaking in a toxic solvent like "Attack" will not leave telltale signs on a pearl that is viewed by unaided vision. I wouldn't leave a pearl in the stuff for six months though.

Am I misunderstanding again?

Slraep

 

[Slraep]

Those inorganic metallic salts wouldn't scream "I'm a nut!" during mass spectrometry or whatever else one would use for such a test.

They do have a list of pigment profiles from organic substances, if using spectrometry. Whether they can extrapolate to pinpoint betel nut, I do not know.

Slraep

 

[laurenb]

There are solvents that do not break down conchiolin. At least not visibly. I left some pearls in natural turpentine for over six months and nothing happened to them. I left another batch in cedar oil and yet another in pure orange oil and nothing happened to those pearls either.

Even soaking in a toxic solvent like "Attack" will not leave telltale signs on a pearl that is viewed by unaided vision. I wouldn't leave a pearl in the stuff for six months though.

Am I misunderstanding again?

Slraep

Yes. I'm saying that even mild solvents would make the "traces of the nut" allegation infeasible because traces of the nutty (drupe-y, really) part would be destroyed, not that it would damage the pearl visibly.

They do have a list of pigment profiles from organic substances, if using spectrometry. Whether they can extrapolate to pinpoint betel nut, I do not know.

Slraep

Yep, they could narrow it down. I don't know how specific the top laboratories can get because my undergrad MS labs were fairly limited in scope.

Quick aside-- Have you seen Quantum of Solace? Your sig gives me a smile each time I see it.

 

[Slraep]

Yes. I'm saying that even mild solvents would make the "traces of the nut" allegation infeasible because traces of the nutty (drupe-y, really) part would be destroyed, not that it would damage the pearl visibly.

I dunno. I still don't get it. Because you can use a solvent that doesn't visibly damage the conchiolin on a pearl and the pigment dissolved in the said solvent would be a metallic salt, which is inorganic---so where is the dissolving of fatty acids into unrecognizable components happening?

Slraep

 

[laurenb]

I dunno. I still don't get it. Because you can use a solvent that doesn't visibly damage the conchiolin on a pearl and the pigment dissolved in the said solvent would be a metallic salt, which is inorganic---so where is the dissolving of fatty acids into unrecognizable components happening?

Slraep

Colleague said tests revealed "presence of the nut." Most dyes are applied in the presence of mordants that would break town traces organic compounds that were clearly of nut origin, meaning it is highly unlikely that a reputable lab would be able to look at an affixed pigment, which is, as you say, an inorganic salt, and say "that is obviously of X origin."

Are pearls dyed without a substance that acts as a mordant? Is that the problem here? It would be quite difficult to strain a natural dye so perfectly that organic matter wasn't still left in the solution. I'm simply pointing out that no "presence of the nut" per se would be left behind.

 

[Slraep]

Are pearls dyed without a substance that acts as a mordant? is that the problem here?

Maybe and maybe.

Whatever solvent was used to make the nacre receptive to the dye would surely break down fatty acid chains into unrecognizable components...

You are meaning a mordant in the sentence above? Because a mordant and a solvent are different. Now I am really confused. Most mordants bind to protein not dissolve it.

Okay, let's chalk this up to me not being able to read properly.

Slraep

 

[Slraep]

Quick aside-- Have you seen Quantum of Solace? Your sig gives me a smile each time I see it.

Yup, who hasn't. My husband is a Bond fan. But I am confused AGAIN as to why my sig. reminds you of Quantum of Solace. There is nothing "green" about that movie!

Slraep

 

[laurenb]

Maybe and maybe.
You are meaning a mordant in the sentence above? Now I am really confused.
Okay, let's chalk it up to me not being able to read properly.
Slraep

I'm sorry I'm failing at clarity. I thought the reasons that nutty presence seemed completely illogical in my mind could be useful for Julie, but *clearly* she should avoid this topic at all costs.

I was definitely using the term "solvent" inexactly/colloquially in the first post because I wasn't expecting to get into a conversation about dye chemistry. I think people generally associate "solvents" with prepping surfaces for a treatment, not solutes, and because I intended the comment very generally, I used that word.

Yup, who hasn't. My husband is a Bond fan. But I am confused AGAIN as to why my sig. reminds you of Quantum of Solace. There is nothing "green" about that movie!
Slraep

Dominic Greene's company is called Greene Planet.

"Is he one of ours?"
"No..."
"Then why is he LOOKING AT MY SEARCH ENGINE!?"

 

[Slraep]

Dominic Greene's company is called Greene Planet.

"Is he one of ours?"
"No..."
"Then why is he LOOKING AT MY SEARCH ENGINE!?"

Gee. I didn't even notice that! I kindda stopped watching after the new blood thirsty Bond stabs a guy in the neck.

But I did notice that Dame Judith Dench was wearing pearl button earrings!

Slraep

 

[laurenb]

But I did notice that Dame Judith Dench was wearing pearl button earrings!

Slraep

Yes! I couldn't get a very good look, but perhaps the inevitable hi-def DVD release will permit us to zoom and oogle.

 

[jas932]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. You have confirmed my suspicions. This story is fiction.

The only reference I can find to betel nut juice staining Tahitian pearls is in a story written by Louis Beck. A fictional story.

Additionally, I cannot find a single article about a Tiffany lawsuit.

The colleague I have referred to states that the pearl harvesters chew the nut (plausible) and store the pearls in their mouths (highly doubtful - ick!) while harvesting. That's how the pearls get stained by the nut juice.

Lauren, you stated it perfectly about the 'flat' look of dyed pearls.

Slraep, I'm going to now look up Zeide Erskine.

Thanks!
Julie.

 

[jshepherd]

The colleague I have referred to states that the pearl harvesters chew the nut (plausible) and store the pearls in their mouths (highly doubtful - ick!) while harvesting. That's how the pearls get stained by the nut juice.

Thanks!
Julie.

That is really funny. I hope he doesn't actually deal in pearls. Any knowledgeable customer would walk out of his store laughing.