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Actual "natural pearls" on eBay
- Thread starter J Marcus
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J Marcus
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Finally I'm back. I've been dealing with one of the other little joys of life on the internet--malware. There's a newer kind now that insinuates itself into MS-DOS segments so it's very difficult to ferret out...
Please understand that I am not a lawyer and do not claim to have legal expertise or to be giving legal advice! I'm only trying to develop a discussion for those of us who are concerned about this issue to try to understand: A. The measure of the (apparent) problem concerning (allegedly) fraudulent claims about "natural pearls," specifically, on eBay, and: B. What might be done to remedy the (probable) situation. It's obvious that the whole issue of fraud on the internet, and eBay specifically, is a black hole into which we might fall endlessly, therefore, I am, for the present, going to limit my part of this discussion to the issue of natural pearls. So:
I started to compose a long list of real and potential wrongs that the (alleged) fraud causes and to whom it is caused. However, I finally came to my senses and realized that for the purposes of this discussion, that's probably not neccessary at present. Those who gravitate to this discussion will know how they are harmed or at least offended by such fraud and such a discussion is most likely not neccessary at this point.
Having dispensed with such issues for now, I will simply go into potential remedies. So:
1. A while back, when I was listing some sterling tableware on eBay I noticed that when I typed in the word "knife," a warning box appeared that told of the restrictions on selling certain knives through eBay and to what and how they apply. This has caused me to think about the possibility of applying such warnings at least to items that are especially susceptible to fraud. My thinking is this: although eBay seems to try to avoid the "policing" of it's site, this is not an act of active policing, but rather, simply, of warning. If eBay would have a warning box pop up when certain words are typed in when listing items for sale, such as "natural" and "pearl" in the same listing, perhaps including a link to the page in the FTC site where the pearl guidelines are given, then I have a strong feeling that this alone would be enough to eliminate 90% or more of the fraudulent listings. If the level of fraudulent listings were brought down low enough, then I have a feeling that those who were then listing appropriately would act in their own self interest against those who were competing unfairly by complaining long and loud to both eBay and to the offending listers. Since eBay is profiting greatly from the present sellers who are, in my opinion, listing fraudulently, I have a feeling that they might not want to do this, perhaps assuming that they would lose fees from both a lower level of sales and the cessation of selling by many of the fraudulent listers. Frankly, I think that the loss in sales and revenues would be very little, if any at all. The sellers don't want to give up their income and, the level of ignorance among the general public concerning natural pearls being what it is, I seriously doubt that significant numbers of buyers would be detered by labels such as "cultured" or "dyed." Further, I think that it is in eBay's own self interest to do so and that they would perhaps even profit by this because in time it would help to raise the general feeling that eBay is a safe place for buyers to do business. It's my impression that presently there is a general feeling in many potential eBay customers that buying on eBay is risky business and to be avoided. I feel this so strongly that I now feel that there might be a window of opportunity for competitors with eBay to possibly operate successfully by marketing their business on the basis of actively fighting fraud and creating a safe marketplace to do business in.
2. A person or persons might complain about what we perceive to be great amounts of fraud taking place through eBay, to the FTC or even the USPS (on the basis of potential mail fraud taking place). Much of this is interstate which I think would add even more weight to the complaint. If they deigned to take notice, I am sure that there would be some kind of lengthy investigation and it is uncertain what remedies would be prescribed, if any. The one factor in all this that I think is most favorable is the fact that (in my opinion) eBay is making very large profits from such fraudulent sales!
3. A suggestion by an attorney friend is to somehow find a good number of regular eBay sellers--preferably eBay store owners--who could then be convinced to announce to eBay that if something isn't done to halt the fraudulent mislabeling of pearls, they will cease to do business through eBay. I have no idea of the feasability of this in terms of research or probable success, but I'm sure it would take some significant effort. Besides, I have a feeling that most pearl dealers who subscribe to a higher standard have already made the choice not to sell on eBay because of the unfair competition and not wanting to be tainted by such an association.
Whatever method one might choose to attempt to effect a change in the way that many sellers on eBay list their pearls, I'm sure that it would take the efforts of a number of people (I'm unsure of how many) who are affected and harmed by this alleged fraud to bring about any change. My personal opinion is that option #1 is the most feaseable.
...and your opinions are?...
Regards,
J Marcus
http://www.flyrodjewelry.com/home
Please understand that I am not a lawyer and do not claim to have legal expertise or to be giving legal advice! I'm only trying to develop a discussion for those of us who are concerned about this issue to try to understand: A. The measure of the (apparent) problem concerning (allegedly) fraudulent claims about "natural pearls," specifically, on eBay, and: B. What might be done to remedy the (probable) situation. It's obvious that the whole issue of fraud on the internet, and eBay specifically, is a black hole into which we might fall endlessly, therefore, I am, for the present, going to limit my part of this discussion to the issue of natural pearls. So:
I started to compose a long list of real and potential wrongs that the (alleged) fraud causes and to whom it is caused. However, I finally came to my senses and realized that for the purposes of this discussion, that's probably not neccessary at present. Those who gravitate to this discussion will know how they are harmed or at least offended by such fraud and such a discussion is most likely not neccessary at this point.
Having dispensed with such issues for now, I will simply go into potential remedies. So:
1. A while back, when I was listing some sterling tableware on eBay I noticed that when I typed in the word "knife," a warning box appeared that told of the restrictions on selling certain knives through eBay and to what and how they apply. This has caused me to think about the possibility of applying such warnings at least to items that are especially susceptible to fraud. My thinking is this: although eBay seems to try to avoid the "policing" of it's site, this is not an act of active policing, but rather, simply, of warning. If eBay would have a warning box pop up when certain words are typed in when listing items for sale, such as "natural" and "pearl" in the same listing, perhaps including a link to the page in the FTC site where the pearl guidelines are given, then I have a strong feeling that this alone would be enough to eliminate 90% or more of the fraudulent listings. If the level of fraudulent listings were brought down low enough, then I have a feeling that those who were then listing appropriately would act in their own self interest against those who were competing unfairly by complaining long and loud to both eBay and to the offending listers. Since eBay is profiting greatly from the present sellers who are, in my opinion, listing fraudulently, I have a feeling that they might not want to do this, perhaps assuming that they would lose fees from both a lower level of sales and the cessation of selling by many of the fraudulent listers. Frankly, I think that the loss in sales and revenues would be very little, if any at all. The sellers don't want to give up their income and, the level of ignorance among the general public concerning natural pearls being what it is, I seriously doubt that significant numbers of buyers would be detered by labels such as "cultured" or "dyed." Further, I think that it is in eBay's own self interest to do so and that they would perhaps even profit by this because in time it would help to raise the general feeling that eBay is a safe place for buyers to do business. It's my impression that presently there is a general feeling in many potential eBay customers that buying on eBay is risky business and to be avoided. I feel this so strongly that I now feel that there might be a window of opportunity for competitors with eBay to possibly operate successfully by marketing their business on the basis of actively fighting fraud and creating a safe marketplace to do business in.
2. A person or persons might complain about what we perceive to be great amounts of fraud taking place through eBay, to the FTC or even the USPS (on the basis of potential mail fraud taking place). Much of this is interstate which I think would add even more weight to the complaint. If they deigned to take notice, I am sure that there would be some kind of lengthy investigation and it is uncertain what remedies would be prescribed, if any. The one factor in all this that I think is most favorable is the fact that (in my opinion) eBay is making very large profits from such fraudulent sales!
3. A suggestion by an attorney friend is to somehow find a good number of regular eBay sellers--preferably eBay store owners--who could then be convinced to announce to eBay that if something isn't done to halt the fraudulent mislabeling of pearls, they will cease to do business through eBay. I have no idea of the feasability of this in terms of research or probable success, but I'm sure it would take some significant effort. Besides, I have a feeling that most pearl dealers who subscribe to a higher standard have already made the choice not to sell on eBay because of the unfair competition and not wanting to be tainted by such an association.
Whatever method one might choose to attempt to effect a change in the way that many sellers on eBay list their pearls, I'm sure that it would take the efforts of a number of people (I'm unsure of how many) who are affected and harmed by this alleged fraud to bring about any change. My personal opinion is that option #1 is the most feaseable.
...and your opinions are?...
Regards,
J Marcus
http://www.flyrodjewelry.com/home
Last edited:
Caitlin
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I like the 1st option, though I can't think of how to get eBay to go for it.
Here is a search I ran for natural pearls and I still get over a thousand hits, not one actually a natural pearl. I looked through about ten pages..
natural pearl -akoya -south -sea -tahitian -magnetic -freshwater -FW -mother
Hey Dawn,
If you see this, would you help me refine my search?
Here is a search I ran for natural pearls and I still get over a thousand hits, not one actually a natural pearl. I looked through about ten pages..
natural pearl -akoya -south -sea -tahitian -magnetic -freshwater -FW -mother
Hey Dawn,
If you see this, would you help me refine my search?
Last edited:
J Marcus
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- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 376
Missed a few!
Missed a few!
Actually, Caitlin--you missed some of the fun by filtering out so many terms! I just did a search for "natural Pearl" and got about 2500. I get a kick out of some of them, like: "natural akoya pearls" and "natural south sea cultured pearls." (?) Ignorance is bliss?... . . . .
J Marcus
http://flyrodjewelry.com/home
Missed a few!
Actually, Caitlin--you missed some of the fun by filtering out so many terms! I just did a search for "natural Pearl" and got about 2500. I get a kick out of some of them, like: "natural akoya pearls" and "natural south sea cultured pearls." (?) Ignorance is bliss?... . . . .
J Marcus
http://flyrodjewelry.com/home
J Marcus
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 376
Even more!!!!!
Even more!!!!!
I decided to scroll down under the regular auctions to the items in seller stores--Wow!!! There were 5505 listings--making a total on eBay of over 8000 listings for "natural pearl!" I wonder if even 1% of these are legit? It boggles the mind... I wonder if anyone has brought these numbers to the attention of the FTC? Hmmmmm...
J Marcus
http://www.flyrodjewelry.com/home
Even more!!!!!
I decided to scroll down under the regular auctions to the items in seller stores--Wow!!! There were 5505 listings--making a total on eBay of over 8000 listings for "natural pearl!" I wonder if even 1% of these are legit? It boggles the mind... I wonder if anyone has brought these numbers to the attention of the FTC? Hmmmmm...
J Marcus
http://www.flyrodjewelry.com/home
Caitlin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2004
- Messages
- 8,502
I started with "natural pearl" then added all those other criteria to eliminate some of the listings. It only took out half- not even counting the stores.
I am very interested in this thread.
Maybe we can copy some of the relevant passages from the govt doc and send them to sellers that offend us too much to keep silent. If we send a condensation of that document to ebay every time we report to ebay we could make the suggestion that they institute idea #1. Maybe if they get that doc every time one of us reports to ebay, they will think about it. At least they will know there are laws.
I am very interested in this thread.
Maybe we can copy some of the relevant passages from the govt doc and send them to sellers that offend us too much to keep silent. If we send a condensation of that document to ebay every time we report to ebay we could make the suggestion that they institute idea #1. Maybe if they get that doc every time one of us reports to ebay, they will think about it. At least they will know there are laws.
Hi Caitlin,
If you are actually looking for natural pearls it is no good putting "Natural" in the search. As J Marcus said you get thousands of hits and very rarely any would Naturals, whether FW or SW. But I never eliminate words as you do because a lot of sellers put in their listings, "Not Shell", "Not FW", "Not Shell" and so on. So you can end up eliminating the items you are looking for. I do not like wading through thousands of low grade rip offs when I am looking for something decent.
What I do is just use key words in my searches, such as "Antique, Pearl", or "Vintage, Pearl" or "Estate Pearl", and so on. You still end up with a couple of hundred but not always and not all are modern although some are and you still get the occasional Chinese seller but not too many. Most sellers don't know when they have a natural pearl in a ring or brooch or whatever so it is no good looking for them that way. You can find naturals especially in FW and Seed Pearls and occasionally beautiful ones in rings but it is rare to find them if you put "Natural" in your search. Before long you will get jet lagged and give up looking thru all the Chinese sellers rip offs and other people's lies.
Another phrase dishonest sellers use is Genuine Pearl. Now what the hell does that mean? Okay, it means it is not a shell or imitation of some kind although some still are but my opinion is it is implying that the pearl is a natural. Not quite fraud but still a way to trick the unwary.
I will use Genuine in my listings sometimes but not as in Genuine Pearl without clarifying what the pearl is. I have used Genuine when listing Tahitians but then also say something like "Guaranteed Genuine Tahitian Pearl. Have to be careful when using Guaranteed though because if you put the wording wrong such as Blue Grey (Guaranteed) Tahitian then a buyer might think that you are saying it is genuine blue, grey or black and a FW pearl. I am sure I have made mistakes like that in my listings and potential buyers may have thought that it was a genuine black or blue pearl instead of the actual type of pearl I was selling.
All this attention sellers - well honest ones - have to take with wording is because of the dishonest ones that use words like Natural, Genuine, Guaranteed so freely that it gets confusing for most potential buyers.
Does this help at all???
Dawn
Caitlin's Quote below - I can't bring up the QUOTES AROUND IT.
Here is a search I ran for natural pearls and I still get over a thousand hits, not one actually a natural pearl. I looked through about ten pages..
natural pearl -akoya -south -sea -tahitian -magnetic -freshwater -FW -mother
Hey Dawn,
If you see this, would you help me refine my search?
If you are actually looking for natural pearls it is no good putting "Natural" in the search. As J Marcus said you get thousands of hits and very rarely any would Naturals, whether FW or SW. But I never eliminate words as you do because a lot of sellers put in their listings, "Not Shell", "Not FW", "Not Shell" and so on. So you can end up eliminating the items you are looking for. I do not like wading through thousands of low grade rip offs when I am looking for something decent.
What I do is just use key words in my searches, such as "Antique, Pearl", or "Vintage, Pearl" or "Estate Pearl", and so on. You still end up with a couple of hundred but not always and not all are modern although some are and you still get the occasional Chinese seller but not too many. Most sellers don't know when they have a natural pearl in a ring or brooch or whatever so it is no good looking for them that way. You can find naturals especially in FW and Seed Pearls and occasionally beautiful ones in rings but it is rare to find them if you put "Natural" in your search. Before long you will get jet lagged and give up looking thru all the Chinese sellers rip offs and other people's lies.
Another phrase dishonest sellers use is Genuine Pearl. Now what the hell does that mean? Okay, it means it is not a shell or imitation of some kind although some still are but my opinion is it is implying that the pearl is a natural. Not quite fraud but still a way to trick the unwary.
I will use Genuine in my listings sometimes but not as in Genuine Pearl without clarifying what the pearl is. I have used Genuine when listing Tahitians but then also say something like "Guaranteed Genuine Tahitian Pearl. Have to be careful when using Guaranteed though because if you put the wording wrong such as Blue Grey (Guaranteed) Tahitian then a buyer might think that you are saying it is genuine blue, grey or black and a FW pearl. I am sure I have made mistakes like that in my listings and potential buyers may have thought that it was a genuine black or blue pearl instead of the actual type of pearl I was selling.
All this attention sellers - well honest ones - have to take with wording is because of the dishonest ones that use words like Natural, Genuine, Guaranteed so freely that it gets confusing for most potential buyers.
Does this help at all???
Dawn
Caitlin's Quote below - I can't bring up the QUOTES AROUND IT.
Here is a search I ran for natural pearls and I still get over a thousand hits, not one actually a natural pearl. I looked through about ten pages..
natural pearl -akoya -south -sea -tahitian -magnetic -freshwater -FW -mother
Hey Dawn,
If you see this, would you help me refine my search?
J Marcus
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 376
Listening to NPR today, I heard that eBay received a bit of a legal comeuppance regarding their facilitation of the sales of counterfeit goods!
Check it out:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92022140
And here:
http://www.wnbc.com/money/16547038/detail.html
If ones' store sells items that aren't what they are advertised to be, then one is legally responsible. Gee--eBay isn't immune to legal and/or ethical considerations! It will be interesting to see where this leads.
Marc
http://www.flyrodjewelry.com/home.html
Check it out:http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92022140
And here:
http://www.wnbc.com/money/16547038/detail.html
If ones' store sells items that aren't what they are advertised to be, then one is legally responsible. Gee--eBay isn't immune to legal and/or ethical considerations! It will be interesting to see where this leads.
Marc
http://www.flyrodjewelry.com/home.html
Caitlin
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- Dec 11, 2004
- Messages
- 8,502
Thanks for the links. I hope lots of companies and buyers complain about about knockoffs and false advertising.
I hope they implement the same kind of warning they do for knives, but of course that would probably be a major customer killer.
I hope they implement the same kind of warning they do for knives, but of course that would probably be a major customer killer.
G
GemGeek
Guest
Oh, No, you made me Snort again!!!!
Pattye
so many pearls, so little time
Laugh and the world laughs with you -- snort and you snort alone...unless you're with me!!!
P
pattye
Guest
Just another great reason why you, Blaire, are such a Special Friend!
Pattye
so many pearls, so little time
Pattye
so many pearls, so little time
G
GemGeek
Guest
I feel the same way, as does Miss Octavia!
J Marcus
Well-known member
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I hope so too, Caitlin. I feel that it is a very unfair trade practice that if a store offers goods on consigment, that store is still liable if the goods are falsely labeled, yet eBay, for whatever reason seemed to feel they were not subject to the same rules the rest of us must work by.
Actually, I don't think that a warning that comes up like the one on knives would affect sales at all. It only comes up for the seller to view when listing items and the customers never see it. I'm interested to see what the response on eBay will be. Apparently they will now be required to do more to "police" the sellers.
Marc
http://www.flyrodjewelry.com/home.html
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