Actual "natural pearls" on eBay

[J Marcus]

On Feb. 6, '08 I did an eBay search on the words "natural pearls." I have my searches set to bring up 50 auctions at a time. I selected a page that had about 3 more days to go. (The catagory turned up over 2000 auctions.) I went through all 50 on the page. Of these there was not even one that I felt had more than a 5% chance that they might actually be natural and the 2 or 3 vaguely, potentially, possible naturals were extremely doubtful. I then proceeded to message every seller on the page asking them if their pearls were truly natural or cultured. Some sellers had multiple auctions on the page and as I remember, I think that eBay limits the number of messages one can send out in a day.(?) Anyhoo, I sent out 24 of these emails. I received 10 replies. Every one of them expressed either ignorance or Oops--I made a mistake! I then went on the forum on eBay that deals with pearls and raised the issue of what may be a vast body of fraud on eBay. What I got back consisted of either: A. eBay doesn't care, B. Caveat Emptor or, from forum "board members," C. Gee, we've been trying to deal with this for years, what you're saying is nothing new... (a wringing of the hands...)

I have been disgusted and irritated by this situation for some years now and am wondering how other members of this forum feel about this. Although I have strong opinions about this, I will wait to see other's responses before sharing them--not wanting to put too much of a slant on the issue.

Let me know your opinions.

Regards,
J Marcus (Marc)
http://www.flyrodjewelry.com/about_abalonemabes.html

 

[pattye]

Hi J. Marcus,

Had to have a snack before tackling the reply to this one! Yes, so frustrating!!! As you delve further into reading the material on this forum, the issue of fraudulent listings and misleading wording comes up many times, by many of our members. I have personally done what you have done, email the seller(s). And complain to ebay. For whatever reason, some have used the opportunity of pearl selling to make a quick buck via misinformation, ignorance and just plain fraud. Of course, in any dealing, ebay or not, there is Caveat Emptor. We have tried to evaluate some of the ebay stores here, and which are honest to deal with (there are a handful). You will find discussions of specific named stores, in addition to online dealers. That is how many find our forum, googling the name of a store they are considering purchasing from.
There are also issues of stealing photos and text verbatum!

If you have ideas about how to deal with this problem, we would be interested. IMO---

Pattye
so many pearls, so little time

 

[J Marcus]

What to do...

What to do...

Well... not to go just too far into it as of yet, it is against the law...
More later.

J Marcus

 

[Sueki]

(Sigh)
Unfortunately, this kind of thing is a fact of ebay life.
It's rife in many categories, too. Search for Tiffany jewellery, to name just one example....
So long as ebay don't police their site, it will continue too.
Other than "I bought it off a bloke down the pub" I can't think of a situation where Caveat Emptor is more appropriate.

 

[Valeria101]

Tiffany sued Ebay, didn't they? I sort of remember that the winning argument there, was that although Ebay is not responsible for the frauds, it does profit from them... so....

For once, I am not sure whether Ebay does have the excuse they claim: that their situation is similar to the innocent real real estate owners who rent space to businesses - or flea markets - that turn out to be frauds. However, I am convinced that they cannot police transactions in absence of independent standards... which aren't there.

It would be interesting to know how widespread the confusion between 'natural' and 'cultured' really is among buyers. I remember this was mentioned in a newsletter from a gemological laboratory (of all places) - which means there still are cases even among buyers of rarefied jewelry. Trade publications slip too - I've run a search out of curiosity a while back; but there's a striking difference between just 3-4 years ago and now: as soon as you get articles about natural pearls, the 'cultured' adjective gets used too.

Just a thought...

What are the rules about pearl labels? Can cultured pearls be called 'cultured natural pearls'? Anything along those lines? And, if there are rules, are they different in the US then the rest of the world?

 

[Valeria101]

PS: in the meantime... ever wondered what happens with all the coral (C. Rubrum), ivory and tortoise sold on Ebay? Those items cannot be legally shipped across borders. A few sellers include warnings in the auction descriptions. Just a few...

Unlike pearl labeling issues, Ebay recognizes these shipping restrictions in their own rules. Enforcement... that's another matter left between buyer and seller.

Which makes me believe that even if Ebay subscribed to CIBJO (or other) nomenclature, it would not make any difference.

What would... is anybody's guess

 

[knotty panda]

This is a very interesting thread. I'm not sure there is a "one size fits all" solution. I know this forum has discussed a "black list" identifying disreputable vendors. That idea was promptly abandoned as it is fraught with peril.

Personally, I'm willing to forgive people who are not in the trade and advertise pearls as natural. Generally, as you pointed out, Mr. Marcus, a word to the wise is sufficient. I am even willing to forgive vendors in the trade who advertise pearls as natural when they are not from the states. I'm dumb about other cultures and natural may or may not mean the same to them as it does me.

I am not, however, willing to forgive those in the trade in the states, especially when they flaunt their GIA credentials lulling the buyer into a false sense of confidence. To me, that is deceptive practices. Those deceptive practices go above caveat emptor. When I am purchasing from an individual, caveat emptor is applicable. When I am purchasing from someone who presents themselves as an expert in an effort to put me at ease, that is fraud.

What's more, when that expert is caught and refuses to acknowledge the possibility of an error and continues the fraud, then my blood really begins to boil.

So, what's the solution? First, I don't know. Second, I sincerely doubt I can spot a fake merely from a picture unless it is blatant.

So my only solution to the problem is to ask for certification. If it truly is natural, there should be no problem with the vendor obtaining appropriate certification BEFORE the sale. That means independent laboratory certification, not a made-up appraisal certification.

I have asked for certification on two different occasions. Both times the GIA "reputable" vendor refused. Names provided via PM

 

[J Marcus]

eBay...

eBay...

OK. I've thought long and hard about this. I'm not a lawyer and what I'm stating here is my opinion, nothing else. However:

1) There is in the USA a regulatory body charged with developing and enforcing guidelines for the advertising nomenclature of consumer goods. This body is the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC, as it is otherwise known, has developed guidlines for the ethically proper nomenclature to be used in the advertising for sale of pearls. These guidelines may be found at:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/jewel-gd.shtm

This should be considered in the light of the immediate past and present regulatory climate. This is that the present U.S. govt administration is and has been hostile to legal regulatory protections for consumers in general. The good people of the FTC are undoubtedly overworked and underfunded in general and will probably only respond to pressure.

2) a. eBay's "natural pearl" auction listings contain, without doubt, a very large percentage of fraudulent listings. This is made obvious by the fact that every pearl expert I have (and probably you have) read of or heard on the subject of natural pearls states that the current supply of natural pearls in the entire world is vanishingly small. The sheer volume of "natural pearls" advertised on eBay (seems to be more than 2000 auctions at any given time) makes it obvious that the great majority of these auctions, through ignorance or intent, are fraudulent, some of them to an extent hard to imagine without witnessing them.

2)b. eBay has created a venue in which it is not only possible, but extremely easy to the point of being attractive for persons to profitably commit fraud and it is a certainty that this fraud is, in fact, occurring. eBay receives monies from every auction, fraudulent or honest, successful or unsuccessful. Thus--eBay is profiting greatly from fraudulent commerce. Though eBay seems to claim that they cannot and will not police this maretplace, since they are taking money generated by the commission of said fraud, I believe that they have a responsibility to make a meaningful effort to see that persons using their site are not using it to commit fraud and to see that eBay is not profiting from fraudulent sales. Further, I believe that eBay, in my opinion, has knowledge that fraud is taking place in their venue and would have an extremely difficult time claiming ignorance of this fraud.

To Summarize: In my humble opinion, eBay has created a place where it is extremely easy for persons to commit and profit from fraud. It is so easy that it attracts persons who wish to profit from fraud. eBay is profiting greatly from this fraudulent activity and undoubtedly has knowledge that it is occurring. Therefore, it is my opinion that eBay has responsibility to make a substantial effort to police, discourage, and/or eliminate this fraud. At the same time, it is the Federal Trade Commission's duty to enforce their guidlines, a responsibility the FTC is failing to carry out.

I will address possible remedies soon in further posts to this forum.

Regards,
J Marcus

 

[knotty panda]

"(h) It is unfair or deceptive to use the term "Biwa cultured pearl" unless it describes, identifies, or refers to cultured pearls grown in fresh water mollusks in the lakes and rivers of Japan."

There's a big Oops! That one just knocked out 90% of the bead suppliers in this country.

There's lots to be considered here. For instance, how far-reaching is the FTC's jurisdiction on these issues? Certainly they have no jurisidiction over foreign e-bay vendors regardless of where the purchaser is. How you can be on a U.S. e-bay site and wind up on an e-bay site in Timbuktu is beyond me. E-commerce law is being written fast and furiously, but lags far behind where E-commerce is presently.
-----------------------------------
Well, I'll be danged! Up above I mentioned two e-bay sellers who refused to revise their advertisements to read cultured instead of natural. Well, I complained to e-bay about one of them about two weeks ago. I got nasty, nasty e-mails from the vendor using words like "slander, liable, sue, laws against ...", etc. I just looked and not only was the ad pulled but e-bay has pulled the vendor. I don't know how long it will last, but maybe they will be more careful in their advertising if they are reinstated. Chalk one up for the consumer!

 

[Caitlin]

What happened to the other one?

Would you please PM me the name(s)?

 

[pattye]

I know we are talking only about natural pearls here, but there are huge issues around other types of pearls, about turquoise and other gemstones regarding treatments, disclosures, etc.

Grandma knew what she was talking about when she reminded us, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!"

Pattye
so many pearls, so little time

 

[knotty panda]

You know how I said I was willing to forgive foreign vendors? Ok, maybe I was a bit hasty. Billed as Natural South Seas pearls. Love the color, though

 

[Caitlin]

How dishonest to bill those as natural SS pearls- they are obviously baroque Lop Noors!!!!

Anyone new to the term "Lop Noor" pearls, should do a search on this site. Start with the earliest posts to get the true picture .......

***
While we do not have an actual blacklist, there are several less than reputable pearl sellers discussed in detail on this forum. The posts describe the actual experiences and findings of various buyers. I think they serve as pretty good "reviews", so to speak.

We also have far more posts that describe and review good sellers and sources. We are open to postings of reasonable opinions and experiences, both good and less good.....

 

[pattye]

Oh, No, you made me Snort again!!!!

Pattye
so many pearls, so little time

 

[Slraep]

Knotty, those are some "rare" SS natural pearls indeed!!

There is another thing that bugs me too besides fraudulent representation of the type of pearl sold. And that is people who puff up their "credentials" so that the average Joe is very impressed with them and puts their trust into whatever they suggest(read: have for sale). I've met several people in the jewellery trade like that. It's fraud, plain and simple. Unfortunately(but fortunately for them), there are plenty of people who are very forgiving, so these fraudsters don't nearly get the punishment they truly deserve.


Caitlin, yah the Lop Noors were something, weren't they! When Zeide Erskine fessed up to her lies on this forum though, there were still a few people who made excuses for her. That's why these Zeides continue doing what they are doing. I think as a whole, we should not take this kind of stuff lightly. I'm glad that these people are being debunked. I'm glad this forum is doing it.

Slraep

 

[jshepherd]

Remember Direct Diamond Depot and GGG?

Remember Direct Diamond Depot and GGG?

One of the things that has always really irked me are the sellers that create a giant facade of credibility. We used to talk about a lot of the eBay sellers who created their own gem laboratory to back up their eBay claims. There was one seller in particular called DDD (Direct Diamond Depot) that created a "gem lab" called GGG (Gemological Grading Group) which provided gem-lab certificates with values such as $4900 for a $2 freshwater stretchy bracelet that DDD sold over and over again for about $50. The JVC actually sent those guys a warning and I got a nasty call from the owner of that scam ring for telling people about it here. If you do some research online you will see that the scoundrel who runs the place (a guy by the name of Constantine) threatens people over justified negative and neutral feedback.

Btw, the GGG had an address here in LA. It was a location in the jewelry district. One day I decided to stop by as I was in the same building. It was a sort of software store.

There are a lot of other sellers that use those fake lab certs. UGL is a bad one. I would venture to say nearly any three-letter lab touted on eBay that is not GIA or EGL is a scam.

 

[jshepherd]

Maybe they were actually Diamond Depot Direct. This looks like the same seller but I do not see reference to the GGG certs anymore.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DDD-CERT-8875-H...ryZ10220QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Caitlin]

I think that is a really ugly emerald. I think aged coke bottle glass is nicer.

 

[knotty panda]

Created their own friggin' lab??? (I realize they didn't create a lab, only the fraudulent paperwork.) I'm sorry. I just don't get it. What depths of moral depravity must someone go to for money? Anyone remember the San Francisco Gem Lab? I think they are honest.

Even though Z was before my time, when I saw those red beauties, I thought, "Hey! She's back in business!"

 

[jshepherd]

I found one of their old certs!

Some guy is trying to sell one of DDD's stretch bracelets with the GGG cert on Craigslist in Knoxville.

http://knoxville.craigslist.org/jwl/592619279.html

You have to look closely at the certificate, but if you do you can see the valuation is $4000 and change. That for a bracelet that costs pennies in China and a couple bucks at any US show.

It looks like DDD is just selling diamonds on eBay now, with the occasional "stone" thrown in as we saw in the earlier post. It used to be small lots of junk stones and really low-end pearls all with those fraud-certs from GGG.

I remember the name of the company at the GGG address now too. It was Logic Mate and I think they sold some sort of jewelry software.